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RV10 Purchase Advice

jahoosafat

Active Member
Hi RVers - I'm the beneficiary of a shiny new PPL (~100 hrs in 172s, a Cherokee, and a Tobago), and I'm considering purchasing a used RV10. I currently belong to a flying club and have the good fortune of having more money than time on my hands. So I'm looking to take the plunge into full plane ownership. The RV10 fits my mission well, and I like the combination of fast cruise speed, low stall speed, and gentle stall/spin characteristics. I'm not IFR-rated yet, but plan to do that training within the next 1-2 years. There are not many used RV10s for sale on the standard sale sites. I'd strongly prefer to buy one that was built by a semi-professional builder (e.g., Jesse Saint, Robin Cross in South Africa, etc.). I'd be interested in folks' critical perspectives on a particular plane <SNIP> . This one was built by a professional build shop in SA (not sure which one yet). I would need to find an experienced RV builder/mechanic to fly out to Colorado for a thorough pre-buy (specific suggestions for people I might contact?). My concerns/questions are:

1) 100hrs SNEW ... This is one of the biggest concerns that I have. Apparently, the current owner had this built back in 2010 and then did a lot of business in Europe, meaning that he didn't fly it. Having a plane sit in a hangar for 5-7 years is not good for the engine or airframe. The broker says he's flying it weekly now to address such concerns, but it's just one of those things that could be bad for me as the second owner.

2) Minor issue ... black leather interior seems like it'll be a sweatbox on the ground on a hot summer day.

3) Avionics ... If I was to build an RV10 myself with a professional builder, I'd probably install top of the line current avionics (e.g., G3X or Dynon). This snobby attitude is coming from someone who has only as yet flown with steam gauges and a Garmin 530, but I think integrated weather, traffic, etc in a single screen is the safer approach. How should I think about this 5-7 year old EFIS from Advanced Flight Systems? Since it's an experimental, should I not worry too much about it since, if needed/desired, I can swap in a more advanced touch screen later? Or maybe this setup will be entirely fine for my current VFR and later IFR needs?

4) Is there anything missing in the panel that you can think of that would be ... Good for safe flying (besides ADS-B, which I know I'll def need to add)? Good for fun flying? Good for IFR?

5) Is there anything particularly terrific about this panel in your view? Again, I'm a low hours new pilot, and readily acknowledge that there's a lot I don't know (and a lot that I don't know I don't know).

6) Ugly planes = better value. So while the paint job makes me salivate, I'm wary of overpaying. It seems very difficult to generate reliable comparative pricing for RVs since there don't seem to be too many sold on the used market. How should I think about the $215k asking price?

Thanks for any wisdom you can bring to bear on this decision.

Cheers,
Jeff
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jeff,
Welcome to VAF. (Ha, Mike, I beat you to it!)
As a new guy to EAB airplanes, let me kindly suggest that there is a lot of homework to be done, and in many cases there are good people with different opinions (maybe avionics choices being a prime example). But two things to start:
1. Insuring a 100 hour VFR pilot in a -10 will be expensive, if even possible. Give Gallagher (they advertise here) a call and ask them what the prospects and costs are.
2. You want to be careful about 'professional built' aircraft. Here in the US they must be 'amateur built' (as in, for fun, not for profit) but this is not true in all countries (Brazil, for example). If you obtain a 'professionally built' (As in, for profit) from another country it is possible the FAA will not let you register it.
 
I had a similar situation...

My RV-10 had sat completely still...zero flight hours for two years.

I was worried about the engine, seals, etc.

As it was in a dry climate, I felt it might be OK, so I had it borescoped (after talking with Lycoming about what to look for).

The engine came back clean, so I bought it.

Since that time, I have had to replace warped tires (sitting in one place). New brakes. One Magneto. Cleaning of the connections on the G900X. And that is about it. The engine had 400 hours on it and I have added 150 more without issue.

The only major issue I have had, happened yesterday, and that was an alternator that failed high and burned out some gear.

But, as far as the engine and air frame go, it has been good.

I paid (a little) less that what you are looking at, but I had more hours on the engine and many potential buyers had been scared off by the lack of regular use.
 
1) 100hrs SNEW ... This is one of the biggest concerns that I have. Apparently, the current owner had this built back in 2010 and then did a lot of business in Europe, meaning that he didn't fly it. Having a plane sit in a hangar for 5-7 years is not good for the engine or airframe. The broker says he's flying it weekly now to address such concerns, but it's just one of those things that could be bad for me as the second owner.

2) Minor issue ... black leather interior seems like it'll be a sweatbox on the ground on a hot summer day.

Leather in general is hot / sweaty ... my purchased -10 has leather seats and you definitely sweat on a hot day.

3) Avionics ... If I was to build an RV10 myself with a professional builder, I'd probably install top of the line current avionics (e.g., G3X or Dynon). This snobby attitude is coming from someone who has only as yet flown with steam gauges and a Garmin 530, but I think integrated weather, traffic, etc in a single screen is the safer approach. How should I think about this 5-7 year old EFIS from Advanced Flight Systems? Since it's an experimental, should I not worry too much about it since, if needed/desired, I can swap in a more advanced touch screen later? Or maybe this setup will be entirely fine for my current VFR and later IFR needs?

I've got an AFS 3500 (non-s) in my -10 (think ~2006 vintage EFIS), and it is a HUGE step up from what I was used to in the 172 with steam gauges. Sure, the newest / latest / greatest systems have way more integration and bells and whistles, but I'm very happy with the AFS3500 for my VFR only flying. Way more information than I've ever had before.

4) Is there anything missing in the panel that you can think of that would be ... Good for safe flying (besides ADS-B, which I know I'll def need to add)? Good for fun flying? Good for IFR?

5) Is there anything particularly terrific about this panel in your view? Again, I'm a low hours new pilot, and readily acknowledge that there's a lot I don't know (and a lot that I don't know I don't know).

6) Ugly planes = better value. So while the paint job makes me salivate, I'm wary of overpaying. It seems very difficult to generate reliable comparative pricing for RVs since there don't seem to be too many sold on the used market. How should I think about the $215k asking price?

I don't see any pics with the listing at the link you provided ... but I paid significantly less (as in 10% or so) than that for a plane with 25 hours since new, perhaps slightly lesser avionics but new paint / interior, etc. It's a small market - hard to say exactly what is a reasonable price.

Thanks for any wisdom you can bring to bear on this decision.

Cheers,
Jeff

Get someone who knows these airplanes well to do a thorough inspection with you. I participated in the prebuy on mine, and we completely opened it up, re-rigged the entire control system, inspected everything, etc etc over the course of a month, which really made me familiar with the airplane.

And everything everyone says about the RV-10 is true ... it is an amazing airplane, fast, efficient, and fun and easy to fly. I have about 650 hours, mostly in Cessnas (172 and 170), and the -10 was not a tough transition at all. It's been a cross country machine in the few months I've had it.
 
I also recommend trying Gallagher - I've gotten great rates and quotes from them, both as a new RV-10 pilot (with essentially no high performance time), and as a new tailwheel pilot when I bought the C-170.
 
Here's heresy - RV-10s are quite expensive and for much less money you could get an older factory built airplane. Don't be in a hurry...

An RV-10 will cost less to maintain than a factory plane, but you won't necessarily know what you're getting. There's lots of surprises in buying a used homebuilt, and some of them can be really ugly (ask me how I know).

Do lots of shopping and tire kicking!

Ed
 
Here's heresy - RV-10s are quite expensive and for much less money you could get an older factory built airplane. Don't be in a hurry...

An RV-10 will cost less to maintain than a factory plane, but you won't necessarily know what you're getting. There's lots of surprises in buying a used homebuilt, and some of them can be really ugly (ask me how I know).

Do lots of shopping and tire kicking!

Ed

I agree with you Ed, it's heresy.

It is extremely important that an experienced A&P with significant RV knowledge not only conduct the pre buy inspection, but helps educate you, the buyer, in any potential issues. There are plenty of well qualified individuals that frequent VAF. You just have to find one close to you or the aircraft.

Most of the bad scenarios that I'm aware related to the pre-buy inspection not being through enough to find the issues. Just read Vic Syracuse's postings here, on FB, or in Kitplanes as an example.

By the way, it's not any different that doing a good pre-buy inspection on a certified aircraft. I did one many years ago on a Cherokee, in which I had to inform the second owner that his aircraft was involved in a off field landing and where the damage was in the wings. He didn't catch it when he purchased the aircraft. The repairs weren't in the logs, but the incident was on file at the FAA and the evidence of the repair was easy to spot if you knew where to look.
 
I'm hearing loud and clear those saying the pre-buy is crucial. I would def invest the money to have someone like a Vic Syracuse or Jesse Saint do it.

Buying an experimental as a first plane sounds like an odd choice, but the more people I speak with, the more I hear that the differences between certified and experimental aren't necessarily a big deal. The risks are there either way.

Jeff
 
As a owner of an older 182 for 10 years, and then a builder and owner of a rv-10, the flying and maintaining of the 10 and the capabilities are so much better.

Maintaining a 3 year old plane is so much nicer (and less expensive) then a 30-50 year old one.

From what I have seen, many, or even most RV-10's at least are built very well, but I have seen a few really bad ones, so as you have already stated a RV experienced A&P pre-buy is a must
 
As a owner of an older 182 for 10 years, and then a builder and owner of a rv-10, the flying and maintaining of the 10 and the capabilities are so much better.

Maintaining a 3 year old plane is so much nicer (and less expensive) then a 30-50 year old one.

From what I have seen, many, or even most RV-10's at least are built very well, but I have seen a few really bad ones, so as you have already stated a RV experienced A&P pre-buy is a must



What's qualifies as a really bad built 10?
 
A bad RV-10 (or any RV) could include:
* Bad sheet metal work, including riveting, edge distance violations, deburring;
* Poor wiring, including wire size and type. I've heard that about half of homebuilts need rewiring;
* Full flight testing not done nor documented;
* Wiring not documented. Especially with complex glass cockpits, if you don't have this, your avionics could be really hard to maintain;
* Not using aircraft hardware, bolts and screws too short or too long;
* Systems installation in general;
* Bad switchology in the cockpit (this is an epidemic, don't get me started!);
* C.g. not calculated properly;
* Checklists that don't match the individual airplane;
* Bad avionics installation, even from a "professional" shop.

Personal experience talking here, folks...

Ed
 
What's qualifies as a really bad built 10?

Search for posts from Jesse about things he found in tail attach brackets on RV's.

Seen some bad edge distances on longeron bolts connecting tail and fuselage.

Saw some very large holes drilled in fuselage side ribs to run 1 3/4 pool hose as conduit.

Hardware store course threaded bolts in places.

But these have been a few instances, most are built with loving care and pride.
Just got to have someone that knows RV's look them over.
 
Can't argue with you BUT,
I have seen the same and worse in older
certified planes.
Just something to consider when looking at a 50 year old
Cessna.

A bad RV-10 (or any RV) could include:
* Bad sheet metal work, including riveting, edge distance violations, deburring;
* Poor wiring, including wire size and type. I've heard that about half of homebuilts need rewiring;
* Full flight testing not done nor documented;
* Wiring not documented. Especially with complex glass cockpits, if you don't have this, your avionics could be really hard to maintain;
* Not using aircraft hardware, bolts and screws too short or too long;
* Systems installation in general;
* Bad switchology in the cockpit (this is an epidemic, don't get me started!);
* C.g. not calculated properly;
* Checklists that don't match the individual airplane;
* Bad avionics installation, even from a "professional" shop.
 
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