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Help regarding CFI

BMC_Dave

Well Known Member
Though this isn't RV related I could really use some help from a group of pilots and I don't know where else to ask.

I'm working on my instrument rating and the instructor I have is charging me an inexplicably high rate. Almost 3X the rate my VFR instructor charged a few years ago.

While I understand each instructor sets their own rates $95/hr seems unrealistic. Charge what the market will bear, but this market won't bear that...

In the Seattle area my VFR instructor was charging ~$35/hr.

Am I being swindled? Or is that where things are now?
 
Suppose you're a CFI and that's your full time job. You might have flight training debts to pay. If you hustle, you can probably bill 1,000 hours per year. And if the CFI is under an FBO, the FBO is going to want to tack on a bunch of overhead and profit.

$35 / hours seems way underpriced... In what other profession would you hire skilled labor for that amount?

Ed
 
Suppose you're a CFI and that's your full time job. You might have flight training debts to pay. If you hustle, you can probably bill 1,000 hours per year. And if the CFI is under an FBO, the FBO is going to want to tack on a bunch of overhead and profit.

$35 / hours seems way underpriced... In what other profession would you hire skilled labor for that amount?

Ed

It's still market-based, regardless of the emotional handwringing one wants to put on it. Here in west Texas I can get CFII time for $65/hr in my plane. Different areas will have different price levels, shop around.
 
We're pretty lucky around here with such a tight nit group of current and ex military guys it's usually a case of beer or a handshake for a flight review or checkout. Tailwheel may cost you a few cases of beer.

When my wife was getting her PPL, the guy charged $20/hr in our plane. Don't find the guy paying bills, find the guy who loves to fly and teach because he's retired and needs out of the house away from the wife for a few hours. Or, if you're an A&P or skilled in some other aspect, try trading. Win win for both parties.
 
You should look a little harder for CFI's. Here in Chicago, there are a lot of young instructors that act as a CFI to build hours. Even through the FBO's they charge $40-50 per hour. The more senior guys seem to charge $60/hr. I talked to various people around my airport and found a young guy amassing hours for an airline career. I worked directly with him and paid $30/hour for my Instrument training.. He was happy, as I think this was more than his hourly cut at the flight school. I had to work around his Flight school job and college classes, but he was actually a great pilot and a good instructor.

Larry
 
In 2015 my Instructor was charging $40/hr. Most other instructors in my club are $50/hr today. I don't think it matters whether it's IFR or VFR instruction.
Josh
 
It's a free country

You can charge as much as you want for services and you can pay as much as you want for those services.

I'm working on my instrument rating and the instructor I have is charging me an inexplicably high rate. Almost 3X the rate my VFR instructor charged a few years ago.

No one forces you to fly with an $95 per hour instructor.
As long as you knew about the hourly rate before you agreed to take instructions you should either quit this guy or renegotiate.
Surely there is more than one flight instructor in your area.
I agree, $95/hour is a bit steep but the market is changing rapidly.
Airlines and commuters are hiring and the pool of available instructors is drying up.
We pay plumbers more than $100/hour but few people think a flight instructor is worth more than 30 or 40 bucks after he/she spent nearly $50'000 to earn an instructors rating.
 
For $95 an hour he better be a Gold seal master CFI with a 100% pass rate and a guarantee that you will pass you check ride at course minimums or promise to refund half the money.

I'm a CFII and that's just absurd. He just wants money and has no interest in your flight training in my opinion.
 
You should look a little harder for CFI's. Here in Chicago, there are a lot of young instructors that act as a CFI to build hours. Even through the FBO's they charge $40-50 per hour. The more senior guys seem to charge $60/hr. I talked to various people around my airport and found a young guy amassing hours for an airline career. I worked directly with him and paid $30/hour for my Instrument training.. He was happy, as I think this was more than his hourly cut at the flight school. I had to work around his Flight school job and college classes, but he was actually a great pilot and a good instructor.

Larry



This is exactly what my daughter has in mind to do when she finishes her "schooling" in June.
She'll have her MEII and CFII. She'll "work" for the school instructing their new students, plus some secondary on the side.
 
You should look a little harder for CFI's. Here in Chicago, there are a lot of young instructors that act as a CFI to build hours. Even through the FBO's they charge $40-50 per hour. The more senior guys seem to charge $60/hr. I talked to various people around my airport and found a young guy amassing hours for an airline career. I worked directly with him and paid $30/hour for my Instrument training.. He was happy, as I think this was more than his hourly cut at the flight school. I had to work around his Flight school job and college classes, but he was actually a great pilot and a good instructor.

Larry



This is exactly what my daughter has in mind to do when she finishes her "schooling" in June.
She'll have her MEII and CFII. She'll "work" for the school instructing their new students, plus some secondary on the side.

She's headed for the airlines.
 
You Get What You Pay For???

Can you get a "bargain" instrument rating? Sure. Look hard and you can probably find someone willing to go for $15-$20/ hour.
Best prices are probably with an instructor that doesn't have more than a couple of hours of "actual" time, has never encountered turbulence in IMC, icing conditions, or suffered equipment failures. Someone who's looking to gain something from your instruction other than the payment received.
What's your goal? To pass tests and obtain an instrument rating or to really learn to fly instruments and be comfortable doing so? What do you plan to DO with the rating - use it as a badge and logbook entry, or use it as a bridge to more learning? BTW, instrument skills are perishable. Here's the thing though - once you have the rating, you're eligible to fly pretty much in ANY conditions. Just like the big guys. It's your decision (hope your instrument instructor spent plenty of time covering decision making).
If the goal is saving money or doing it on the cheap, did you know that the ME rating you can get in a counter-rotating Seneca will cover you in a wide range of much larger aircraft that have both props turning in the same direction? You can get a tail wheel endorsement in a J3, and then go out and purchase a Pitts. While your insurance carrier might provide some restraint in these latter two cases, they won't with an instrument rating.
Does $90/hour sound a little steep? Maybe. In the end, paying at that rate will probably add a couple of thousand dollars to the rating. What are you planning to do with it? What's your butt worth? Just like instrument flying, in the end, it's your decision.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
I moonlight at a flight school here in San Luis Obispo, CA. They charge $75/hour for instructors regardless of the type of training (used to have different rates for primary vs. advanced training). When I instruct independently, I charge $50/hour, but I'm just doing it for fun not trying to make a living. It's tough to scrape by as a CFI. If the guy is a good instructor, pay him his rate!

Good luck with your search.
 
Thank you for all the input, it has been very helpful.

It should also be noted he is a CFI, not a CFII. Initially he said he could provide all the training except the final sign off and claims to have done this before. After a modicum of research I found out this was incorrect, but he was insistent and we proceeded with three lessons.

After I insisted on further clarification he asked a DPE and lo and behold, nope, you need at least 15 hours from a CFII as is clearly stated in the regulations. Not only that, but I quickly found an interpretation from the Office of Chief Council that a non-CFII cannot provide ANY instrument training whatsoever. They can basically only act as a safety pilot according to the FAA.

I'm rather dejected by all this, I like the guy and his training style but feel like I've been misled by someone I respected. Oh well, live and learn.

I contacted my PPL instructor who is a CFII but I don't know if he's even instructing any more.
 
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Thank you for all the input, it has been very helpful.

It should also be noted he is a CFI, not a CFII. Initially he said he could provide all the training except the final sign off and claims to have done this before.

that a non-CFII cannot provide ANY instrument training whatsoever. They can basically only act as a safety pilot according to the FAA.

e.

This is, frankly, outrageous. A cfi should know his priveliges, and his limitations. He may NOT give you the required 15 hours of instrument instruction. This is nothing new.
It should be noted that a CFI (not -II) may give a student pilot the 3 hours of instrument training required for a PP license. But that cannot later be counted toward the instrument rating.
 
Thank you for all the input, it has been very helpful.

It should also be noted he is a CFI, not a CFII. Initially he said he could provide all the training except the final sign off and claims to have done this before. After a modicum of research I found out this was incorrect, but he was insistent and we proceeded with three lessons.

After I insisted on further clarification he asked a DPE and lo and behold, nope, you need at least 15 hours from a CFII as is clearly stated in the regulations. Not only that, but I quickly found an interpretation from the Office of Chief Council that a non-CFII cannot provide ANY instrument training whatsoever. They can basically only act as a safety pilot according to the FAA.

I'm rather dejected by all this, I like the guy and his training style but feel like I've been misled by someone I respected. Oh well, live and learn.

I contacted my PPL instructor who is a CFII but I don't know if he's even instructing any more.

Good thing you got out early. An instructor that doesn't understand the rules he/she is teaching is a bad sign. At least for Instrument training, I want an instructor with good attention to detail. A decent amount of your training is understanding procedures and regulations.

Larry
 
This is, frankly, outrageous. A cfi should know his priveliges, and his limitations. He may NOT give you the required 15 hours of instrument instruction. This is nothing new.
It should be noted that a CFI (not -II) may give a student pilot the 3 hours of instrument training required for a PP license. But that cannot later be counted toward the instrument rating.

just to clarify, those 3 hours can be used in totaling the rquired 40 hours of Instrument time, but not as part of the 15 hours of required instrument instruction.

Larry
 
Yeah, the FAA makes a distinction between "instrument training" and the training required for the PPL. "Basic instrument maneuvers" and "maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to the instruments" 61.107 and 61.109 as they relate to the PPL specifically do not need to be completed by a CFII, only a CFI.

In my case however, I got 1.3 actual IMC during my PPL from a CFII. I would think that would satisfy both the PPL requirement AND count toward the 15 required for the instrument.

Though by no means am I trying to only meet the minimum 15 hours IFR training so an additional 1.3 hrs won't ultimately matter. Just food for thought.

Anyway, this CFI agreed to refund half which is nice. He got some quips in about his rates and how he has students lined up, I got in some quips about providing training in violation of FAA regulations. So I think we're all happy :)

PPL CFII responded, we're flying this weekend!
 
I am quite impressed with your negotiating skills, good for you
and now that you are a well informed pilot we can trust you with your new instructor.;)
 
CFI/CFII Priveleges

This is, frankly, outrageous. A cfi should know his priveliges, and his limitations. He may NOT give you the required 15 hours of instrument instruction. This is nothing new.
It should be noted that a CFI (not -II) may give a student pilot the 3 hours of instrument training required for a PP license. But that cannot later be counted toward the instrument rating.

The scary thing is, this type of thing is not all that rare. For example, I'm aware of a CFII that believed it was perfectly legal to (and he did) give IPC's and act as a safety pilot while he didn't have a medical. The same CFII had his license revoked after failing a 709 check-ride (he was given 2 attempts and never even made it to the point of taxiing the aircraft), then thought it was still legal to provide flight instruction! (instructor certificates have a note right on them stating that they are only valid when accompanied by pilots license # xxxxxxxxx).

Skylor
 
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I am quite impressed with your negotiating skills, good for you
and now that you are a well informed pilot we can trust you with your new instructor.;)

Haha, yeah this was a good learning experience. Also phrases like "can't log previous lessons as dual" and "instruction in violation of 61.195(c)" may have spurred compliance with my request. I have no desire to be punitive, we all learned something from this. *cough* confirm rates before taking lessons *cough*

There's a fine line to walk as a student. You defer a lot to your instructors as they are generally much more experienced, and you definitely don't want to be a combative know-it-all, but you still have to know you can push back against incorrect practices.
 
The scary thing is, this type of thing is not all that rare. For example, I'm aware of a CFII that believed it was perfectly legal to (and he did) give IPC's and act as a safety pilot while he didn't have a medical. The same CFII had his license revoked after failing a 709 check-ride (he was given 2 attempts and never even made it to the point of taxiing the aircraft), then thought it was still legal to provide flight instruction! (instructor certificates have a note right on them stating that they are only valid when accompanied by pilots license # xxxxxxxxx).

Skylor

According to the local examiner a CFII does not require a current medical to instruct and does qualify to instruct the required 15 hours. I have a good friend who is a wonderful instructor and pilot but lost his medical. I have a current medical and according to the local examiner that is sufficient. My friend can not instruct student pilots but can instruct a qualified pilot working toward an IFR rating. We double checked prior to any instruction.
 
I have a current medical and according to the local examiner that is sufficient. My friend can not instruct student pilots but can instruct a qualified pilot working toward an IFR rating. We double checked prior to any instruction.

61.23 (b)(5)

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—

(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember

It's about being a required crew member, so student pilot, safety pilot, etc, no; flight review, something where student can act as PIC (not just log PIC), say PVT ASEL to COMM ASEL, yes. I'm not sure the IFR training is legit as if IMC or if the student is under the hood, the CFII is definitely a required crew member.
 
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61.23 (b)(5)

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—

(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember

It's about being a required crew member, so student pilot, safety pilot, etc, no; flight review, something where student can act as PIC (not just log PIC), say PVT ASEL to COMM ASEL, yes. I'm not sure the IFR training is legit as if IMC or if the student is under the hood, the CFII is definitely a required crew member.

I have to agree with this interpretation. The regs are pretty clear that a PIC operating with reference only to instruments in VFR conditions requires a safety pilot. The requirements of the safety pilot are also very clear. I don't see how an exception exists if the safety pilot happens to be an Instructor. To me, this would require an explicit exception or notation to that fact in the regs and I have never seen that. It may exist, I have not really read the regs related to instructors. Remember, following sound reasoning, a safety pilot must be able to provide pilotting skills in the role of safety pilot. Therefore a reasonable person should assume that typical PIC pilot qualifications should apply.

We have learned that individual FAA employee opinions vary like the colors of rainbow. However, in front of the ALJ that won't help the accused. In this country we follow the legal standard that "ignorance is no excuse." I feel quite confident that receiving inaccurate guidance/ reg interpretation from an FAA employee will not help to defend against an action directly in violation of the regs, though it could be the case when the regs are not clear and the situation requires interpretation of the regs. In this case, it's pretty clear what the reg's are requiring.

Larry
 
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I know of one cfi/no medical who did instrument training. He sat in the back seat, and brought along a fully qualified safety pilot to sit in the right front seat. Usually the safety pilot was another instrument student, so after flying an hour or so the two front seat guys swapped seats. Of course this was limited to VFR, as no one on board could act as PIC in IMC.
 
I know of one cfi/no medical who did instrument training. He sat in the back seat, and brought along a fully qualified safety pilot to sit in the right front seat. Usually the safety pilot was another instrument student, so after flying an hour or so the two front seat guys swapped seats. Of course this was limited to VFR, as no one on board could act as PIC in IMC.

Good call, Bob; forgot about that scenario. We used to do that in the military every now and then - check pilot in the jump seat.
 
Medicals and Instrument Instruction/Safety Pilot Priveleges

While we're on the subject of medical requirements for instrument instruction and safety pilots, it's also worth mentioning that one major bummer with the new Basic Med is that a pilot holding a Basic Med certificate can only act as a CFII or simulated instrument safety pilot IF they are the Pilot In Command for the flight.

Skylor
 
While we're on the subject of medical requirements for instrument instruction and safety pilots, it's also worth mentioning that one major bummer with the new Basic Med is that a pilot holding a Basic Med certificate can only act as a CFII or simulated instrument safety pilot IF they are the Pilot In Command for the flight.

Skylor

This is so stupid. A pilot who can legally be a PIC cannot be a safety pilot when someone else is PIC? The FAA is clearly resisting this as much as they can.
 
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