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Presidential TFR Violation

jlott

Member
First post. I'm just a student pilot right now with about 31 hours. Putting the finishing touches on my workshop this weekend. I'll be ordering the empennage for a 7A in the next week or two. Thats the good news :)

The bad news...

Did my first solo XC last week and flew right into a 30 nm Presidential TFR around, I'm told by the FAA, GRR and BIV. I wasnt intercepted but got a call on my mobile from my flight instructor about 2 nm past 6D6 (15 nm from GRR) so I diverted to 6D6 and called FSS to start sorting things out, etc.

You can see my GPS track here http://tinyurl.com/3m7x3vb and here http://www.n251rv.com/2011/08/11/solo-xc/

Needless to say the FAA isnt too happy with me right now and is VERY unhappy with my CFI. At any rate, I'll be talking to the FAA again on Monday but my questions are these;

- What commonly happens when a student pilot violates a TFR like this?
- What is the worst that could happen?

Thanks for any feedback and thanks to everyone for the great resource that is VAF :)
 
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I'm not sure about students. A fellow I know busted a popup POTUS TFR in 02 and got all of his tickets (basically everything but ATP) revoked and told he had to wait a year and start all over. He was not fined, however. I'm almost positive that punitive measures are now different.

They don't have anything to take from you as you are a student. I'm afraid your instructor may not fair so well, especially since he/she had to sign off on your long cross country route, wx, briefing, etc, correct?
 
I wouldn't stress over it too much. Just talk to them so they know you're not a terrorist or something. Was it your bad? Yes, but you'll never do that again. Chances are this happens more then one would think. We all make mistakes.
 
Call AOPA

I would call AOPA as soon as they open east coast time and ask for their legal department. Get their professional advice, and promise them you will send in dues money as soon as you hang up. Like the previous poster said, you are "young and innocent" when it comes to aviation. I would not make any excuses or place blame on anyone but yourself. Accept what they have to say and learn from it.
 
I'm afraid your instructor may not fair so well, especially since he/she had to sign off on your long cross country route, wx, briefing, etc, correct?

That is my understanding, yes. Clearly we both overlooked a few things :eek:
 
I would call AOPA as soon as they open east coast time and ask for their legal department. Get their professional advice, and promise them you will send in dues money as soon as you hang up.

That is great advice, Glenn. I will do that. Thank you.

Edit: Thanks to a well designed aopa.org I am now a member. :)
 
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Justin,

For sure you won't do any time but it may well involve a rug dance with the FAA. If you fly long enough, you will eventually experience one with the feds, your employer, or an instructor. No one is perfect and sometimes screw ups get noticed.

I've developed a habit, even for a local flight going no where, to check the official TFR list. http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/index.html

If they throw one up after you take off, at least you can say I checked it such and such time. They'll still hang you, but maybe not quite so high. :)
 
TFRs can pop up any where, any time. They threw several of them over the flooding areas I was flying in when i was taking flood pictures. XM Weather posts them so I pick them up n my 496.
 
That's why I always use VFR flight following on XC, they will advise you if you're about to screw the pooch...
 
Flight Following

That's the best reason I've heard yet to use VFR flight following. Great point.
 
Don't depend on flight following

ATC may warn you about a TFR but they do not have to. If you violate a TFR while using flight following, you alone will suffer the consequences.

Bob Axsom
 
I would call AOPA as soon as they open east coast time and ask for their legal department. Get their professional advice, and promise them you will send in dues money as soon as you hang up. Like the previous poster said, you are "young and innocent" when it comes to aviation. I would not make any excuses or place blame on anyone but yourself. Accept what they have to say and learn from it.

Totally agree with Glen here. AOPA is right on the border with the DC SFRA so these guys are more than familiar with dealing with the FAA regarding TFR busts. Talk to their legal services BEFORE you speak to the FAA or have any further conversations with them. My WAG from experience says your instructor will probably take the brunt of any enforcement action and he should be speaking with AOPA as well.
 
It's going to be an interesting discussion

Especially between the FAA and your instructor. I've never seen/heard of a student pilot doing photography during their first (or any) solo x-country.
You've gotten some good feedback so far- mea culpa, no excuse, AOPA, use flight following, etc.
My advice, put the camera away and fly the airplane.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Where did he say he was taking pictures? I think you've confused his and Larry Geiger's posts.
 
I Hope That's the Case

Where did he say he was taking pictures? I think you've confused his and Larry Geiger's posts.

Is so, my apologies. I just looked at his original post. His first link showed a flight track, the second, a series of pictures in and from a aircraft.
Terry
 
Welcome!

I would recommend you file a NASA ASRS report today!!!! This very minute. You can do it electronically.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html


Summary
The ASRS is a small but important facet of the continuing effort by government, industry, and individuals to maintain and improve aviation safety. The ASRS collects voluntarily submitted aviation safety incident/situation reports from pilots, controllers, and others.

The ASRS acts on the information these reports contain. It identifies system deficiencies, and issues alerting messages to persons in a position to correct them. It educates through its newsletter CALLBACK, its journal ASRS Directline and through its research studies. Its database is a public repository which serves the FAA and NASA's needs and those of other organizations world-wide which are engaged in research and the promotion of safe flight.

Purpose
The ASRS collects, analyzes, and responds to voluntarily submitted aviation safety incident reports in order to lessen the likelihood of aviation accidents.

ASRS data are used to:

•Identify deficiencies and discrepancies in the National Aviation System (NAS) so that these can be remedied by appropriate authorities.
•Support policy formulation and planning for, and improvements to, the NAS.
•Strengthen the foundation of aviation human factors safety research. This is particularly important since it is generally conceded that over two-thirds of all aviation accidents and incidents have their roots in human performance errors
 
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Additional SA

One additional thing I do as part of my preflight planning is to check other "significant" (read possible TFR sources) upcoming events.

For example, I look at white house press releases...they will not necessarily tell you where the president is going to be exactly, but you may get "the President will be visiting Michigan on Thursday, followed by central texas on Friday".

I also check Nasa launch schedules when I am in the area, amusement parks, natural disasters, etc. Most shows up on NOTAMS, but some do not. I try to think about all that COULD present a popup TFR.
 
Is so, my apologies. I just looked at his original post. His first link showed a flight track, the second, a series of pictures in and from a aircraft.
Terry

Nope, my apologies. He mentioned GPS track for the links, so I didn't bother to follow them - just assumed they were both maps. I agree with your original statement. I would leave the camera behind when flying solo or, at best, in the baggage compartment for safe use at the destination.
 
I've got one for you:

My very first day as CO of my squadron, two of my hotshot LT's decided to navigate the old fashioned way using DR only (they turned off their map) and ended up flying EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY dead center over the top of CAMP David - thankfully for me (more so than them) the President wasn't there.
They couldn't have done a better job of hitting a target if they tried and it was by accident.

I spent the better part of 9 months dealing with this issue with the FAA. At the investigator level they were very helpful and mostly wanted to chalk it up to young pilots being stupid and leave it at that. It was the upper level folks who wouldn't let it go.

As the CO they were more concerned about me than the pilots - what kind of training I provide, were they qualified, what level of supervision was provided, etc.... In the end it all worked out. Your CFI was required to sign-off on your flight plan which would included verifying TFRs. If you flew the plan he signed off on then he will be answering most of the questions and in my opinion as long as he approaches this with a sincere sense of humility and is sufficiently contrite he will get a slap on the wrist. Honesty is the only solution...they know EXACTLY what you did.

My two LTs enjoyed several months of touring around the various squadrons giving lectures on how to properly Navigate and were assigned all the flight planning for any cross country missions - it was the least they could do for giving me a headache like that.
 
Pop-up TFRs

Out here in the west, and I suppose anywhere, firefighting TFRs can pop up. On a recent flight from Salt Lake to Oregon, I called FSS a half hour before departure and specifically asked about TFR's on my route... nothing. Approaching Twin Falls, ID, ATC (flight following) advised me of 2 different TFRs directly in my path.

That, and three recent traffic advisories that would have made me extremely shaken if I hadn't heard about them first from ATC, make me a firm believer in Flight Following!

Good luck with the FAA. Regardless of the outcome, stick with it! I had a solo off-field landing that bent metal but I walked away with a bruised shin (and ego) when I was a student. Tough to get back on the horse, but so worth it.
 
Fires

Those are the kind of things I glean from the news...sometimes makes for a little more "boring" flight, but in my mind, if it makes the news (car wreck, spill, fire, etc) there is sure to be other interest and therefore other reasons for me to NOT fly over it. I just steer around that stuff.

I diverted my CCX once because I was arriving Friday and leaving Sunday...the President was supposed to be there only for Saturday. I didn't want the chance even of him staying late and me getting stuck. Sure enough, he decided to stay Sunday and since we were 50 miles away, we were able to complete mission w/o extra grief.
 
I am currently not an AOPA member and others may comment on this capability. When I was an AOPA member I would get emails notifying me of TFRs in my home area. This seems to be a valuable service to keep us informed of the changing airspace. I'm not sure if this service is still operational, but it does give additional awareness.
 
I haven't dealt with an issue like this regarding the FAA, but wish you luck. I did land on a "closed" runway on my checkride after an Ercoupe went off the end of it and ended up hidden in a grassy ditch. I had made all the proper radio calls, overflew the field, etc and neither of us saw the plane hidden in the grass and not a peep from anyone on the ground on the radio. Once we landed a guy came on the radio saying we had just landed on a closed runway. My heart sank and thought I had just failed the checkride. The FAA examiner was an older lady and somewhat of a legend in the Chicago area and known to be tough, but fair. She smirked a little and looked at me saying "that's a first". I held out hope.

Our next task was to take off in the C-152 on the grass runway at Joliet which was soggy and had standing water covering some of it from recent heavy rains. We both agreed that if we weren't off the ground by the intersection of the paved runway we would abort and go to plan C, whatever that was. In the end we made it off the ground and she said it was a textbook soft field take off, my first non-simulated one by the way. She signed off on my ticket and said that she couldn't fault me because she missed the Ercoupe as well. Good luck to you and I hope things work out. Don't let an issue early in your training deter you.
 
Plus one on:

1. File a NASA form! Your instructor too. You need to have this done within 10 days of the "incident" for this to help.

2. Put the camera away. Solo flights are for practicing aviation skills and judgement. Unless you are a prodigy you really do need the practice. Photography can only distract from that.

I believe life will be difficult for you in the aviation world for a while. I also believe your Instructor will absolutely hate life for some time to come.

Keep us up to date if your new Lawyer will allow. Currious what the outcome will actually be for both of you.

Mark

Have you guys read all the verbage in a TFR? Heck they even restrict RC airplanes!
 
help

As was mentioned several times... use flight following. They are getting paid to help, why not use it? Coming up from Fl. last spring we were warned of a flight of 3 F-18s, 12 o'clock, opposite direction , 500 feet below. :eek: Very useful service. Besides, they seem to like Canadians. ;)
 
Fill out a NASA report, and lawyer up. TFR violations are getting more frequent and the FAA is not taking them lightly. It will probably take a little longer to get your PPL than you anticipated.

The person I'd be more concerned about is your CFI, he's giong to have a lot of questions to answer...
 
I recall reading somewhere that TFR violations don't fall under the NASA umbrella of protection. I hope that's not the case, and you have nothing to lose to file one. However, something somewhere about that rings a bell ...

If anyone has accurate info on that, I stand to be happily corrected.
 
As others have mentioned, you are fine. They may ask you to meet with them and your instructor. Expect to get a very severe tounge lashing, but I don't think they can touch you.
I was responsible for a flight school flying through a 100 hour AD on one of thier aircraft. I transposed two numbers on the hobbs when I wrote down the time. The next student did not check the hobbs against the log and flew through the 100 hour AD.
The CFI responsible for me, the flight school responsible for thier own maintenance program, both where severly "threatened". When it was my turn they simply said "and you, well you, there is nothing we can do about you." And that was that.
 
As others have said, you are probably Ok. As a student, you have a certain amount of teflon on you.

As others have also said, JOIN AOPA and get their legal services plan.

TODR
 
Why don't we work together with AOPA and EAA to change the TFR process?

All the TFR seems to do is make us private pilots look like idiots because we are always busting them. (Take the older lady in the J-3 who was recently intercepted by F-16's.)

Not only are they crazy large but they can pop-up at any time.

What is the real risk a small plane makes to the POTOUS? Other than interrupting a speech.
 
political TFRs are nonsense...

political TFRs are complete nonsense and have little to do with improving anything for anyone beyond the elimination of banner towing protest...
 
Unfortunately, we're talking about a PRESIDENTIAL TFR. I can't think of a higher profile TFR at the moment. They take this serious. You would be surprised at how many people are watching that TFR and the surrounding area. I have seen multiple violaters everytime a TFR like this is in effect. Usually 10 to 20. I am not sure what the end result is for these unfortunate pilots but I do know they find and pursue each and every one of them. Depending upon the severity of your intrusion...the penalties, if any, seem to rise.

As far as ATC goes, while on flight following, you WILL be notified of any presidential TFR that you are approaching. If you are on your own, following a NOTAM or GPS that depicts the TFR, I would still give wide berth to the area AND listen in on the area ATC frequency because they will reach out to you if they suspect you will bust the TFR. The FAA would rather help you avoid the area vs prosecute you when you do bust it.

The previous advice given is sound and you should follow ALL of it. Good luck to you and your instructor. Hopefully it will be nothing more than an educational experience.
 
One additional item that can help. Follow the news. Subscribe to a newspaper. Listen to a radio newscast on the way to the airport. Sure, I GUESS presidential TFRs can pop up at any time, but in my neck of the woods, presidents don't often pop in unannounced.

He was in my neck of the woods today. It was first announced late last week, and has been all over the news.

and let your CFI know that Lindbergh made it to Paris. :p

As for the FAA, I had a violation a couple of years ago. I found them professional and helpful in sorting it out and making sure it was a simple mistake and not evidence of some underlying problem. Don't worry too much about it. It's a great learning experience.
 
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