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RV-14A - Real World Build Time / Are 1,00 - 1,100 hours realistic?

Oliver

Well Known Member
I hope my question doesn't sound too silly, but while I want to build, I am afraid that I might not be patient enough to work for many years on a project.
The other thing is, that I would really like to replace our O-300 powered Cessna 172 within the next one or two years.

The initial ideas was therefore to buy an almost complete RV-7A project and to finish it within a year or so.

Well, the 'problem' is, that the RV-14A starts to grow on me. I am therefore wondering, whether you believe that the average build time is indeed only 1,000 - 1,100 hours, as published on Van's website? I also inquired about the quick build option and was told that it would save approximately another 30% or so, what would reduce the build time to about 700 - 800 hours.

Up to around a 1,000 hours, with the quick build option, would be fine with me and I would probably just order new kits. Looking at the projects on mykitlog.com, it appears however that nobody (maybe very few, I did not check all) come even close to the published hours and need much longer.
 
I would not expect the typical first time builder to complete an airplane in the published amount of time.

Here are some factors which will impact your build:

-How organized are you?

-Are you handy with tools?

-Do you have a (more than) adequate workshop?

-How perfect does your airplane need to be?

-Have you driven a rivet before?

-How many variations to the plans do you expect to make?

-Will you paint the aircraft yourself? (Have you painted anything before?)

-Are you planning to build the panel yourself?
 
One opinion

I will call myself a first time builder even though I had built half an RV-9 tail prior to this, but in my opinion it is not realistic at all.

Others who have built multiple may have a different take on this, however I am at around 400 hours right now and the wings are not yet complete. I may be slower than most but there are still lots of conventional building practices that need to be done. Not all the parts are drilled to final size, and there are just some processes and systems that are the same as all the other models.

What appealed to me and perhaps is not as appealing for some others is that many of the standard decisions are thought out for you. I will not have to ponder the electrical system much, figure out the best routing for wires and lines, be able to take advantage of the newer rv-10 style gear, etc.

So bottom line for me is that I would expect an improvement over building one of the older models but 1,000 hours for a non quick built is unrealistic. Would be curious to hear the opinions of others who are already working on the finish kit.
 
Build time would be for the airframe only using criteria Kyle listed. Add to that firewall forward, avionics, systems, and other items. Yes there are people that can complete the airframe only in that amount of time but they have LOTS of experience.
 
Thank you for your replies.
According to Van's website, the hours are supposed to be the average for the complete aircraft. I understand that an experienced builder could finish the plane quite a bit faster.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/time.htm

Kyle, please find my answers below, marked red. Reflecting on them, I would think that I am pretty much the average guy. My wife is also interested in building and handy with tools, I therefore estimate that she will contibute with about 30% to the project.

[...] Here are some factors which will impact your build:

-How organized are you?
Medium, my wife will however be of great help in this regards

-Are you handy with tools?
I would think pretty handy - I am an electrical engineer, who has also worked on the shop floor for a few years.

-Do you have a (more than) adequate workshop?
I would think yes, I have dedicated space with the size of about a two car garage available.

-How perfect does your airplane need to be?
Almost perfect

-Have you driven a rivet before?
No

-How many variations to the plans do you expect to make?
None, I would order as many components prefabricated as possible (qb kit, wiring, avionics packages)

-Will you paint the aircraft yourself? (Have you painted anything before?)
No, I however don't see this as a factor, as I would not have it painted before the first successful flights.

-Are you planning to build the panel yourself?
No


Frankly, I am pretty concerned about whether it is smart to start such a project with a set deadline (replacing the 172 in max. 2 years)? :confused:
 
I can speak for how I'm doing. I've got the empennage at 95% and the wing at 70% and have almost 400 hours in the build. Probably 80 hours of that is related to prepping and painting parts with primer. I can't tell you how many hours I spent looking things up, thinking about how to do things, ordering things, etc. I'm totally a first time builder. These hours have been given over about 18 months. I thought I had a 2-3 year project when I started but I think I still have 2-3 years left. I'm planning to get the wings done by Christmas; so its looking like one kit a year..... I think 1500 hours should about get it because I'm going to go with the stock engine and a stock panel selection and not have to figure out the wiring and all the variables of the final steps.
 
Thank you for your replies.
According to Van's website, the hours are supposed to be the average for the complete aircraft. I understand that an experienced builder could finish the plane quite a bit faster.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/time.htm

Kyle, please find my answers below, marked red. Reflecting on them, I would think that I am pretty much the average guy. My wife is also interested in building and handy with tools, I therefore estimate that she will contibute with about 30% to the project.

I'm an Industrial Engineer, fairly handy with tools, had restored a car, worked in a cabinet shop, built an engine, and done a few other things before I built my -6. I think it was advertised as a 2,000 hour project. I didn't track hours (not a value add, IMO), but I'd wager it took 3,000 hours. Of course, I painted the airplane and rebuilt the engine myself, but those items probably didn't add 250 hours. So, subtracting the adders (engine and paint), I'd guess Van's estimate was 30% low.
 
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Frankly, I am pretty concerned about whether it is smart to start such a project with a set deadline (replacing the 172 in max. 2 years)? :confused:

I think I would share your concern Oliver. Of course, it depends how much you personally are motivated by deadlines - some people thrive on them, others fear them. But setting a deadline for a first-time builder is a good recipe for failure in my experience.

You stated in your answers above that you are looking pretty much for perfection - I can tell you that as a first time builder, striving for pefection, you are going to take way longer than the factory amount of hours to build the airplane. Many Lindy's have been won by first-time builders, but they often speak of building many components three or four times to be happy with the results.

You ask a very common question for someone thinking of getting into the experimental aircraft world..."I'd really like an RV to fly, it would be perfect - and I am trying to decide if I should buy or build". In most case, my answer to that quesiton is that you should definitely buy. Building is a huge undertaking that requires a passion to BUILD. If you have to ask if you should build or not, you may not really understand what you're getting yourself in to. And that reflects NOTHING negative on those that buy - they end up with a great airplane at a great price with great capabilities, and we keep great airplanes flying!

Your problem is that there are no -14's to buy (yet). That's a conundrum. But realize that building will take more time, money, and effort than you think it will - no matter how conservatively you estimate.
 
JDA_BTR, Kyle,

Your numbers appear to be more in accordance with what I see on mykitblog.com and other builder's blogs. It appears as whether adding about 40 - 50% to Van's 'average' estimates is about right.

Thank you all, this certainly helps us to make an educated decision. We also changed our vacation plans and will visit Van's in a few weeks, to fly with the RV-14, to check out the factory and kits and to also speak with them.
 
1000

I have built and helped build, dozens of RV airplanes.
I am pretty organized.
I have over 1000 hours building a RV14 tail kit, Wing Kit, and Fuselage Kit.
The Finish Kit and Firewall Forward Kit will take another 500 to 800 hours.
 
Some of the wisest words ever uttered about building an airplane are these:

"The only reason to build an airplane is because you WANT to build an airplane."

It is not only for recreation, but also for education. The thing about education is: It takes time. You will find problems in your build and you will need to take the time to research and then solve problems. I include that in the number of hours it takes to build an airplane.

You should also calculate what you're NOT going to be doing while building and airplane if you're putting a 1,000 +/- and time frame on it. You're not going to be taking vacations, play with the kids, taking your wife to dinner, fixing what needs fixing around the house, watching TV etc.

Oh, by the way, also calculate the number of hours you'll spend with people who stop by and say, "hey, whatchadoing?"

I'm not an engineer and probably am not that smart in the big scheme of things so my numbers are probably out of line. I intended to take one year to work on each subkit. In the end, it took me 11 years and more than 3,000 hours.

I got a heck of a plane out of it, raised two kids, stayed married to the same woman and the house isn't falling down.
 
Thank you very much again everybody, your feedback certainly gave me plenty of valuable food for thought. :)


[...] But setting a deadline for a first-time builder is a good recipe for failure in my experience.
[...]
"I'd really like an RV to fly, it would be perfect - and I am trying to decide if I should buy or build". In most case, my answer to that quesiton is that you should definitely buy. Building is a huge undertaking that requires a passion to BUILD. If you have to ask if you should build or not, you may not really understand what you're getting yourself in to.
[...]
Your problem is that there are no -14's to buy (yet). [...]

The thing is that I am really tired of humming along at 95 kts in our 172 - as much as I like this plane, travelling longer distances, what my wife and I like to do, is quite a pain. Actually, I would like to replace it rather in one than in two years and I certainly don't want to fly it for another 3 or more years.

While I really want to build something, it doesn't necessarily have to be a plane.

Maybe we should simply buy a finished 6A or 7A, either already equipped with very nice avionics (yes, we like glass :D ) or one with a basic VFR panel, which we then upgrade with the avionics we like.
We would be comfortable with the space in the cockpit, it is pretty much the same as in our 172, we would however have to increase the gross weight by 50 lbs. or so, if we also want to haul all of our camping gear with us (Yes Paul, I know your opinion on this ;) ).
The other option would be to replace our 172 with a not too expensive faster certified airplane, like a 182 or maybe an older Mooney or Bonanza, as this would relax the timing, and to only then start to build an RV-14 without the pressure to have it finished within a certain time frame.
 
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Building speed is directly proportional to the divorce rate of builders. Not completely 100% accurate prediction but in general, a truism.

Time for building must come from somewhere.
 
EMP Done, Started Wings

RV14A standard build kits.

About 325 hours/7 months to finish the empennage kit including the fiberglass tail feather tips.

Just started the wing kit and I believe it may take me a year and about 400-500 hours based on what other builders have advised.

The two different time measures are hours and months; months depend on how much you can work on the kit every day. Consistency contributes to efficient progress, you've got to do something every day even if its just 30 minutes worth > keep the ball rolling.
 
Build time...

I'm an engineer, built a Long-EZ before my -9A.
My -9A was a QB kit, took 1660 hrs of hands on build time to first flight.
My Long-EZ which is plans built, took 1900 hrs.
So judge from there.....
 
Oliver,

Paul's comment about building is spot on. I've owned my 7A going on 3 years and it still amazes me each time I fly. Just did a cross country flight to spend the week in Maine. A beautiful, 4-hour, VFR flight from GA to PA, spent the day visiting with family, and then 3 IFR hours this AM to Maine. Just a great little cc machine if you don't have to haul a bunch. I usually plan about 145 ktas which is a good compromise for me between speed/economy.

But...none of this has anything to do with building. Plenty of solid RVs out there for sale. Only build if your goal is to build a plane. I began my -10 after owning my 7A a little over a year (and will keep it until engine/avionics time) and have really grown to love the process. It is definitely a large undertaking, but a balance can still be maintained. Discuss openly with the spouse and realize what you're getting into. Visit some builds in progress; get an idea of the level of commitment. If you honestly don't get stoked at the thought of building, then start hitting the various classifieds. Eventually you'll find a gem that suits you and your mission.
 
I spoke with my wife today. The good thing is that we are both pilots and that while I tend to be cheap, she is the one who insists on doing things right.

That being said, we agreed that if we get an RV, it will be an RV-14.

Since we have already scheduled the visit at Van's, we will also see what they have to say and then make our decision.
 
If you've never built a plane before, you don't know what you're missing; you don't know if you'd enjoy it or not.

I had never built anything other than computers before I started a plane. Now I really miss building. I should say we miss building. My wife and I took one of those 'How To' classes one weekend and never looked back. She really enjoyed the build as much as I did. So don't think of building as a one person endeavor. It's always great to have a second set of eyes and different idea or approach to how/what do we need to do next.

Buy a set of plans on a USB thumb drive from Van's and start dreaming. Hang out with your local EAA chapter which will invariably include a bunch of RV folks. It won't be long before you go for the tail kit!

We wouldn't give up our building experiences for anything. And we can't wait for that RV15/updated 9 to come out :D

Bob
 
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I built my non-QB -14A in just north of 1,200 hours over the course of 21 months. Add several hundred more unlogged hours for the occasional assistance of my wife and friends.

Consider that I'm highly organized and generally well-focused in the workshop, I have all the necessary tools ready to hand, and I've done this before (on an earlier and more involved RV kit). Though I'd only built 1.5 airplanes prior to the -14A, I've also completed a number of other large projects (a kit car, a motorcycle restoration, etc.).

I wouldn't recommend fixing a firm completion date in mind at this early stage, particularly since it's your first project. At this point, workable time estimates aren't possible, as you simply don't yet know what you don't know. Too, the truth is that there'll be days of anger and frustration out in the shop and other days (maybe stretches of days) when you just can't face dealing with it at all. That said, the -14A kit is like a Snap-Tite model compared to the earlier ones; you'll be fine.

Just try to make steady progress each day and you'll get there.
 
Your problem is that there are no -14's to buy (yet). That's a conundrum.

The good news to prospective -14A buyers is that mine will be for sale over the summer as soon as Phase 1 is completed. I don't have a 'For Sale' page written yet (and won't until the test phase is done), but pics of the entire construction process may be seen on my website.

I'm currently trying to evaluate whether it's worth keeping the paint shop date and selling it afterward. On the one hand, it would be painted and perfect, but a buyer would have to like the paint job. On the other hand, selling it unpainted would allow the buyer to finish it any way he liked. I do know that the cost of the first-rate paint job I've lined up would not be entirely recompensed by the increased sale price, so I'm inclined not to do it.

But realize that building will take more time, money, and effort than you think it will - no matter how conservatively you estimate.

Absolutely true!
 
I am a multiple builder, dedicated and had everything ready when I needed them (engine prop, finishing kit and all)
It took me 11 months to build and two months for the paint, probably around 2000 hours for the build part.
 
I am a multiple builder, dedicated and had everything ready when I needed them (engine prop, finishing kit and all)
It took me 11 months to build and two months for the paint, probably around 2000 hours for the build part.

11 months plus paint? Tell me that was a QB kit... :rolleyes:
 
14 months, two people, first time builders, 15-20 hours per week, quick build. A few 2-3 week periods waiting for stuff.
 
Build Class

Just reading through this thread about build times and had a question. Have any of you attended the Synergy Air build class or fundamentals class? They offer a class where you complete the empennage over a 14 day period. It costs $4800, but if it could save a first time builder a lot of head scratching it might be worth it in time saved and expensive mistakes.
 
I will be attending their class early next year plus the tail cone add on. A good place to learn techniques and fundamentals. Also, you get some hands on experience using tools which is helpful when you decide to purchase your own tools.



Jim
 
Oliver, I'm at nearing 1000 hours and anticipate another 200 to 300 hours to be complete. I built this entirely on my own, no Quickbuild, with occasional riveting help from my wife. I should be in the air about 2 years from project start building at a fairly relaxed pace.
 
First time builder, standard kit. North of 2500 hrs including building the avionics harness. Started in 2015, should fly next month. Been a great experience!

Jim
 
Long lead times

There are some pretty long lead times on sub kits right now. Might need to order several sub kits up front might be your only hope to finish in 2 years. You also haven't allowed time for any mistakes. Ordering replacement parts can add to delays. Avionics can add tons of time. tons
 
Slow build, First time builder, 1,229 hours over 20 months. I built the panel myself. This did not include paint. That will come later.
 
First time builder. Civil engineer. Built two race cars from scratch. Built/restored 30 antique motorcycles. This experience helped....some.

14A. On last section of empennage. Time to date = 400 hrs Time remaining=100 hrs Working 9 hrs/day, 6 days/wk. Started July 23, 2020.

SB fuse, QB wings

No way this could be done in 1000 hrs. I figure 2000 hrs without major setbacks.

Fuse coming in Nov. Engine in Jan, 2021. Wings Mar 2021.

Plan to fly him July 2022.
 
First time builder, and I do all the work myself except for the riveting that requires 2 people. I'm just short of 1400 hours into a slow-build and am about 2/3 the way through the fuselage kit after completing the empennage and wings. I started almost exactly 4 years ago in 2016, but I have a full time job so I only work on weekends. I figure at this pace it will be at least a 2000 hour project and another two years to finish (when I started I naively thought it would only take 2 years!). Based on my experience there is no way you could finish a slow-build -14 kit in 1100 hours if you care about it being airworthy at the end. One caveat is that I prime all of my parts and that adds a significant amount of labor to the overall project. If you don't prime, or only selectively prime, then you could save yourself significant time.
 
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