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First Steps in a Long Plan

myv65

Member
I tend to be a little verbose at times, so my thanks in advance to all who get through the following and offer advice. :D

I'm new to the forum after lurking for a few months. I'm +/- 10 years from retirement, and while I can't predict what will happen tomorrow, I'm smart enough to know few things worth doing get done without a plan. I figure I should have at least ten good years of flying after I retire, and my wife and I are liable to pair up with another couple for a lot of stuff like a winter residence down south, travel, etc. All are on board with the idea of getting our own plane and travelling as a group.

One obvious answer today is the RV-10, and depending on what happens in the next five years I may go that route. In the meantime, I need to get a PPL and build time / experience. I've got the means to buy a plane, but also am an engineer who has built or fixed stuff most of my life. I look at new projects as an excuse to buy new tools and learn new skills.

My inclination is to purchase a -12iS kit and complete the build while I get either a sport license or PPL, with a goal of having my plane ready to go about the time I finish training. Only real question is whether I upgrade from sport to PPL in my own plane, and for the slight difference in costs I'm thinking straight to the PPL. We've got school within an hour that has a -12 in their training fleet.

An alternative is to purchase an old used plane, and that was my original thought. That's looking less and less likely, primarily because used planes strike me as comparatively expensive right now, and they're clearly a *lot* more expensive to operate and maintain than a home-built. I've looked at Beech Sundowner/Sierra and Cessna 172/182. All offer the ability to carry at least one more person than a -12, and the Sierra and 182 would go a bit faster. All should be a little more stable in rough air. All under $100K would have inferior avionics and relatively thirsty, older engines. I figure if I really want to take a third (or fourth) person for a ride, I can rent.

So, what are the questions? For those that have been-there-and-done-that, if you could start over today would you go the traditional flight school route, learning in a Cessna or Piper and paying $8K+ to get your PPL? Would you jump in and drop the better part of $100K to build something like the -12iS? Given today's used market, would *anyone* buy a 40+ y/o spam can instead of a -12iS (for a new pilot)? Does anyone think a 52 y/o Engineer is nuts for buying a plane before having a single flight lesson? Would it be foolish (as in dangerous for lack of sufficient experience) to consider a -9A? How many hours in a slower plane before one should even think about something like that? Oh, and one more. Is anyone willing to share what insurance costs are for a -12, along with your age and experience level? I've got a couple of emails off inquiring, but more info is always good.

From a purely rational perspective, I suppose I should get the PPL and then decide if I want to build a plane, but even with the -12 that probably means a year or more from PPL to flyable plane of my own. It would pain me greatly to cough up rental rates to fly in the meantime.

As an aside, I've got three kids with two in college and one finishing high school There is interest among them to pursue PPLs, so having our own plane for that also has $$$ benefits over traditional training. If even one of them follows through with it, I can see plane building being a semi-full time job as I near and enter retirement.

My thanks for comments / advice, even if you tell me I'm a fool for buying/building before flying. . .
 
Dave,

Sounds like the aviation bug has bit.

I purchased a partially completed RV6 project prior to getting my license. I then purchased a flying light sport aircraft and got my light sport license. I spent a year flying and building time towards my PPL, while building the RV6. Once I had enough solo time I went back and got my PPL in a rented Cessna 150. This route allowed me to fly my light sport whenever I had time while I finished building the RV6. A couple of months prior to finishing the RV6 I sold the light sport for the amount I purchased it for. So all my flight time in it was only fuel and insurance cost.

Best luck!
 
I bought my old Warrior II about halfway through my PPL training, to save on rental fees and avoid competing with the many students at our very busy local flight schools. Less than two years after earning my PPL, I committed to building an RV-10. That build process has taken a little longer than I had hoped, but in the meantime, I have upgraded from the Warrior to a Mooney, and am able to take the time necessary to make the RV-10 what I want rather than race to the finish line. Also, having the flying airplane lets me fly when I want/need to.

Some may say that having a flying airplane while building will slow you down in the build, but that's not necessarily the case if you remain dedicated to building.

As far as passengers go, if you're thinking of reliably carrying four people long distances, you'll want to build light, and consider that carefully in choosing any interim airplane to buy.

My opinion is to skip the sport pilot license, go right to PPL/instrument rating (which will be practically necessary if you intend to go long distances year round anyway), and consider buying used before building.

But that's just my opinion, and there are others who have done it the other way around.
 
If you want something to get your certificate (go PPL and skip the sport) and build hours, I'd pick up a 150 or Cherokee 140 and get going for under $40k. Honestly, the low end is the only part of the certified fleet I'd be looking at. There's too much of your money being wasted there on things to keep the trial lawyers at bay.

If you want to build, you could drop that same $40k into really any Vans kit and have plenty to do for a few months. You just have to project where you're going to be financially and mission-wise for flying once you're done.

In just about every way, the 12iS is more capable than your standard training spam cams. It may not seem that way on these forums because other Vans models do so much more. A 10 will probably cost twice what a 12 would and be 3 or 4 times as many hours to build.

If you don't want to build, you can find several well-equipped 9As for way less than you could currently build one.

Also, the RV-15 seems just around the corner so that may prove worth a wait to see what it is.
 
From a purely rational perspective, I suppose I should get the PPL and then decide if I want to build a plane.

My thanks for comments / advice, even if you tell me I'm a fool for buying/building before flying. . .

I certainly won't call you a fool, but I will strongly agree with the first sentence. Having been a full time CFI for a decade taught me a few things about the wide variety of people who are interested in flying.

A sizeable portion of the population has "always wanted to learn to fly". A very small subset of them actually get out to the airport and take a lesson. Fewer make it to solo, fewer still to PPL, and very few are still flying two years beyond the PPL.

None of this means anything if you really want to do this, but the thing is, you don't know what you don't know. I would highly recommend getting your PPL (or at least post solo) prior to buying anything if for no reason other than you will have a much better frame of reference on what you want and how to best accomplish it. Also, it allows you to decide if you really enjoy this as much as you expect you will. (not everyone does) It's also the cheapest way to figure out where you want to start shoveling money. :) While you're doing that, get out and get you eyes, hands, and butt in/on every RV that you can find and talk to as many builders as possible.

Not trying to be a kill-joy, and I have been accused of being too conservative, but that's what crotchety CFI's do.

Enjoy your journey!
 
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Not nuts to me.

Does anyone think a 52 y/o Engineer is nuts for buying a plane before having a single flight lesson?

Do you think a 49 (at the time, now 50) year old pharmacist who started lessons after purchasing a kit is nuts?
I think you are perfectly normal. If you want to do it, get after it.
There is more satisfaction in building. My kids want to fly too. That helps a lot.
 
My opinion......if you have kids in the family interested in aviation, building an RV-12 could be a great family experience. We may be traveling down that road ourselves in a few years.
 
Long Range Plan

When I retired at 55 I took two flight training hours in the local clunkers, purchased my own airplane and never looked back. I independently hired three really good instructors and over a year attained my certificate. So much easier flying your own plane. There is lots to consider and locally the biggest one is availability of hangars and instructors. Instructors won't fly unless they are named insured. Most importantly, how much time can you devote to flight lessons versus building, versus work and family? I've owned many airplanes but currently fly an RV-12 S-LSA. If you have the time why not just start with an RV-10 and take lessons in that airplane?
 
My sincere thanks to everyone for their advice and insights. Why not an RV-10 now is the easy one to answer. If would take about three times the cash and probably three times as long, and for the next five years or so I see most of my flying as solo or a single passenger. The economics of the 12 just make way more sense. I'm also hesitant to go from 0 hours to a 200 mph machine, though the 9 is admittedly tempting.

I've been blessed to do a lot of traveling, some for work, some for leisure, some a mix. 49 states, 20ish countries. My wife and I love to travel and I have no worries investing in a plane now and building a 10 or similar later when that time comes. Planning to take demo rides in a 12 and a 10 as soon as I can arrange it. Hopefully I'll get started on a 12 kit soon.

Thanks again.
 
Another idea

I was always interested in becoming a pilot but family/money/job prevented owning or taking lessons until I was about 40. I bought a Cherokee 140 with two long time friends, one was a pilot and the other two learned in the plane.

We put 1000 hours on the plane ans sold it for almost what we paid for it. Don't know if that still can happen in today's market but it worked great for us.

As a new pilot I would recommend you to buy a nice RV12 with partners if you have friends who you can trust. The fixed costs like hangar, insurance and maint are sure more affordable when divided by two or three. You can get your PPL in the RV12 if it has equipment for night flight. The RV 12 which I own is great to fly if you are happy going places at 100 knots on 5 gals/hour. I love everything about the plane. Taught one partner who got his light sport airplane certificate and my daughter is not far behind getting hers.
 
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