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Panel layout feedback

N546RV

Well Known Member
OK folks, I think I’ve finally firmed up this panel design to the point where I want to get some feedback. Intended use case will be primarily day/night VFR. The aircraft will be IFR capable, even though the pilot probably won’t be for another couple years.

Broad strokes of the setup are pretty self-explanatory: two 10” Skyview HDX displays, plus a Garmin GPS175 to fulfill the TSO’d GPS role. After much thought, I decided against a second COM radio; it’s not depicted on this image, but there will be provision for connecting a handheld transceiver into the ship’s antenna, and that’ll be my backup COM solution. Other redundancy will be provided by the Skyview backup batteries and dual ADAHRS. Also seen here is a controller for the SDS CPI2 ignition, which will also be equipped with its own backup battery.

Generally speaking, I’ve biased controls to the left since that will be my “free” hand in-flight, though with the -8 panel I can really reach any part of it with either hand. As far as EFIS functions go, this is also a pretty minor point, since anything I’d do with the dedicated COM/AP panels, I can also do on either of the touchscreens. The GPS175 and intercom are the only real exceptions to the left-hand bias; I figure the intercom isn’t going to be an in-flight critical thing to operate, and if I’m using the GPS175 I’m probably IFR and therefore probably using the autopilot.

“Switchology” is generally grouped by function, and also positioned with regard to importance of function. All main power-related switches are in the top left group (more on the main power setup later). At bottom left, close to my left hand, are what I’m considering “in-flight administrative” functions that might have some urgency attached. The starter arm switch in this position will be guarded. Lighting controls aren’t depicted here; they’ll be located on the right-side console. Colored dots are the beginning of an attempt to color-code switches by function; that scheme is still not quite complete (suggestions welcome).

I’m installing a Tosten MS grip up front, which will control fairly usual things: trim, flaps, PTT, AP disconnect/CWS, and engine start (which will work in concert with the aforementioned starter arm switch). The panel placard for stick functions is still a work in progress (and also notably depicts an Infinity grip right now); it may not end up there in the end, as I think fitting it in the small available space will be challenging.

Now, back to the “main power” switch group. Electrical layout is loosely based on Nuckolls Z-13, mainly modified to use a conventional vacuum-pad standby alternator rather than an SD-8. Intent is to normally have the fields on for both alternators, with the standby’s regular set a bit low so it comes online automatically if the primary fails. The switch is set up as OFF-STANDBY-BOTH, and would normally be on BOTH. The middle position allows for verifying standby alternator functionality during the runup. ESS BUS ALT FEED allows the always-hot battery bus to feed the essential bus in the case of a major failure (up to and including the master contactor).

The two CPI2 power switches are required to properly isolate that system when the aircraft is shut down; AP MASTER just switches power the servos.

With that all out of the way, here are the thoughts/questions still on my mind:

  • Is the alternator switch setup reasonable? Is the inability to only kill the standby alternator a potential issue? One solution here could be to add field CBs, say, just above this row of switches.
  • Originally I had the starter arm switch all by itself, mounted higher on the left “wing.” My thought process was to really isolate it, but I ended up preferring the idea of limiting different switch groups, and having it a bit closer my left hand could be a benefit on the slim chance I need the starter in-flight. I don’t have a super strong opinion either way, so I’m curious what others think.
  • Originally I had the CPI2 controller on the far left, in accordance with my “put stuff on the left” guidance, and I was going to have the air vent on the right, but that would require routing the scat tube all the way across behind the panel. I figure the CPI2 doesn’t need to be at hand; I’ll interact with it during my runup checks, but in-flight the only normal interaction would be engaging LOP mode when needed.
  • Is there anything obvious that I’m omitting here? Are the little ELT control panels ubiquitous, or is that a per-model thing? That’s the only thing I think I might be missing here.

That’s about all the thoughts I have on this, I believe. Looking forward to buckets of feedback - thanks!

And now for the actual mockup - click the image to view larger/fullsize:
 
It is great except for that control stick grip embedded into the right side of the panel... :D

Assume you have throttle quadrant in left hand and stick in right. So radios on left makes sense. Switches high in panel, is good keep from hitting them accidentally, but consider a guard on critical switches, like battery and ignition.

Suggest cutting poster board out as full scale panel, paste/draw photos of instruments/switches, sit in a chair in front of it. Go through pre-start, start, taxi, run-up, takeoff, level off, climb, cruise, descent, pattern, approach, landing, taxi, shutdown..... Revisit it from time to time.

It looks like you are going IFR with full autopilot. Nice. Happy New Years.
 
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992LB6
New Rocket panel.
G
 
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I just sold my VFR only RV-8 but still fly the RV-9A with full glass, rarely flown VFR. I?ve found stylistic differences in what works for cockpit layout, VFR or IFR;

Panels and checklists should be designed together. Write out all of your checklist functions as well as other flight operations (turning on lights for visibility approaching the pattern, or leaving the patter; going in and out of clouds); and of course, all your emergency procedures. See what works, what needs to be adjusted.

* IFR, it?s all about the avionics. You want the avionics placed where they are easy to use and when you reach the knob, your hand doesn?t cover the avionics. This means right hand on the GPS, for example;
* You?re smart in allocation of stick functions. Too many folks overload the stick for no real reason. Good show!
* VFR in the -8, I found that there was plenty of time to reach all the switches. The only thing I wanted on the stick and didn?t have was a flap dump function, which you?ve got;
* Fuel pump will be used a bunch, so put it in a more conspicuous place;
* Consider what switches are used for startup, shutdown, and in emergencies. On the panel is prime space, by your knee is not. You?ve got plenty of space in the corners of the panel for switches;
* Autopilot power is more of a safety of flight switch than a power switch, so don?t put it with the power switches just because;
* Don?t see any light switches, presumably those are on the side by your knee. For IFR, strobes should go next to pitot heat because going in and out of clouds, one is on, the other off. Those could go on the main panel so you don?t have to look down to find them;
* In fact, lots of light switches could go where you don?t have to look down at them, especially if you fly at night;
* Maybe put the starter arm switch with the other power switches. Also, put it where you can reach it immediately without looking for it, just in case;
* Consider head impact with anything on the panel. That?s tough to implement in the real world;
* Intercom does not need prime space. And there are at least two vendors with excellent auto-squelch intercoms. Strongly suggest one of those;
* No idea what the device is in the lower right column;

An excellent start! But I?m not sure any panel design is ever totally perfect...
 
Some thoughts:
- Fitting two 10? Skyview displays in an RV-8 works as you know, but creates placement issues. For example I?d put your display higher.
- You are missing the must have SkyView Knob Panel - this is the most used item on my panels.
- I offer that you might look at how you designed the panel to come out for updates, mods and maintenance.

This photo is from first power up on my RV-8 project panel. When I made this panel I made two, one for the new owner of my RV-8A. I flew cross country IFR in his plane and found the panel to be very functional and intuitive.

There is logic to the four breakers on the panel vs the side wings- this is a center element to easy panel removal. All non-vital loads are on the right side panel.

Carl
78-C68155-4-BB6-46-A9-BE38-F3-A5-F21-BEDDE.jpg
 
Good stuff. I've already been doing some test-sits and chair-flying in the airplane (sometime, as seen here, with assistance from Cleco the cat). And those sessions already led to moving some things around - my taped-up version here doesn't match the latest mock I have. Definitely going to keep doing more of this before I finalize everything.

d8pOFmll.jpg


* Autopilot power is more of a safety of flight switch than a power switch, so don’t put it with the power switches just because;

Good point, relocating that could give me a little more flexibility in the main panel.

* Maybe put the starter arm switch with the other power switches. Also, put it where you can reach it immediately without looking for it, just in case;

This was actually my motivation for moving it to its current location, immediately adjacent to the throttle quadrant, for quicker access. I haven't chair-flown this yet, so it remains to be seen if it survives that crucible.

* No idea what the device is in the lower right column;

SDS CPI2 electronic ignition controller.

Some thoughts:
- Fitting two 10” Skyview displays in an RV-8 works as you know, but creates placement issues. For example I’d put your display higher.

This is a thought I had before. In fact, my earliest panel designs tried really hard to center around two 7" Skyview displays stacked vertically, but I never could lay out the rest of the panel in a way that I liked. I think this layout work be even less optimal with HDX displays, thanks to the angled bezel at the bottom, especially given how the RV-8 panel is kind of low in my sightline.

Unfortunately, if we start with two 10" displays, it doesn't leave a lot of room for movement. About the best I could do is maybe an inch higher than what I have mocked up here, which I don't necessarily feel is much of an improvement. I could still move around the items above the displays and get them a bit higher, though. Something to tinker with. Maybe I need to temper my strong desire for symmetry a bit...

- You are missing the must have SkyView Knob Panel - this is the most used item on my panels.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of real-world feedback that's helpful. I used to have the knob panel mocked up, but canned it to make room for other things, having convinced myself that I could perform the knob functions just as well using the knobs on the displays. So your contrary experience is food for thought.
 
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That all looks pretty flash there:) Better than some heavy metal panels.
Funny thing having now retired after flying glass I bought my 8 with traditional steam guages set up like the military, love it, back to real flying like the good old days:)
 
It's YOUR stink'n panel!

I’ve been flying my VFR Dynon glass -8 for 2.5 years and now in the process of laying out a new panel and adding a IFD440. I’ve concluded that I would prefer to have my engine and power related switches on the right (master, avionics power, ignition) and my lighting control and boost pump on the left. I assume that if I’m in an emergency and want the boost on, I would be flying with my right (I’m right-handed) and want the boost on the far right close to the throttle. Other than that, I find the entire -8 panel very easy to get to with either hand. My current Dynon radio is on the right, and I’m often turning it while I’m on auto pilot either in a hand-off to another controller or well ahead of the airport that I’m landing at. Reaching over to toggle from approach to tower if I’m hand flying isn’t a big deal. I'm putting that button on my stick, too.

Bill at Up North Aviation who has been a saint to put up with my many changes is who is helping me cut my panel. In the end, I’m using the over-sized panel and he is cutting it to fit. This will give me the desperately needed 1/2 -3/4 inches at the bottom to fit my switches. I’ve asked a lot of people for panel input and you will get all kinds of answers, but in the end, it’s YOUR panel. Do what you want. If you haven’t flown behind one, my best advice is to get a full scale printout and tape in the plane and sit behind it. See what you like or down like. I’m glad that I flew behind one for a couple of years. What I would have laid out two years ago would be different than where I’m at today.

RV8-Panel.jpg
 
I always try to place screens as high in the panel as physically possible to keep it closer to eye level.

IMG_7406-625.jpg


IMG_7756-650.jpg
 
Alternators

Hi,

My suggestion is that you have Primary and Secondary alternators running separately and that you can switch off/on either separately.

The reason for this is if you have a regulator failure it wont cook your battery etc...

So On-Off-On switch, double poll for safety. Also, for switches I gather you are using "standard" electrical switches? These are good for a very long period of time and easily found anywhere should you ever have a problem.

On the layout, my thoughts are as follows: work left to right on startup and right to left on shutdown. Group where appropriate and as others have said, be cognizant of the placement. Easy to access is important.

Another thing that I assessed and was good (I fly and RV-10 IFR) was that ever you have any night flights, all the switches feel the same. See if you can use different caps or feel changes for the switches (i.e. tactile differences) for different groups.

If you have "groups", give then a little space so that they are in their groups. This will aid tactile feedback. Only needs to be a half swich gap.... gap. :)

Apart from that, have fun.

Regards,
Andrew.
 
Hi,
On the layout, my thoughts are as follows: work left to right on startup and right to left on shutdown.

Let me suggest an additional criterion or two...

Lay out your switches with consideration for how much time you have when you activate them. On startup and shutdown, you're on the ground and have all the time in the world, so I would give startup and shutdown considerations very low priority. But I would give lots of consideration to emergency checklists.

Also, consider which switches are operated the most often, and give those priority.

Last thought: it's easy to get an 80% solution, and if you work real hard, you can get a 95% solution. Beyond that... and as evidence, I'm about ready to write checklist Rev 24.
 
+1 on the “add Dynon knobs” team.

I had the Dynon knobs on my original panel and removed them when I added My IFR radio due to space restrictions.... flew like that for a year, then made room for the knobs.... Much better!

The screen knobs work, but not nearly as convenient as the dedicated knobs.
 
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Appreciate all the great feedback. I'm going to tinker with the idea of relocating the intercom panel to the right armrest, in keeping with a) the ringing endorsements of the dedicated knob panel and b) the point that it doesn't need prime panel space. I'm thinking I'll move the COM radio panel up to top right and put the knobs in the upper far-left position. I thought about moving the AP panel up there instead, but I really like the lower-left position for ease of use by my left hand. I figure this works for both normal use (engaging the AP while right hand is still on the stick) and hairier situations (hitting that LEVEL button, say, in inadvertent IMC).

These AP functions, as well as COM frequency selection, can all also be accessed with either of the Skyview screens, but maybe not quite as quickly.

I think I'm also going to add a depiction of the right armrest to my panel mock, just to provide some completeness to the interface. I can also work the screens higher on the panel, though not much without doing some major reworking - and I'm not convinced that getting the displays another 1.5" higher is worth the effort.
 
More revisions!

Panel mock now includes a depiction of the right armrest for completness of switches and stuff. I determined the intercom can fit over there, so I moved it to that spot to make room for the knobs on the main panel.

I also moved the pitot heat switch to the console; doing this allows the upper-left switch section to become dedicated to "primary" power management. I also rethought the layout of that area - I decided I wanted individual alt field control, but didn't want two switches that were going to be on essentially 100% of the time. The same thing applied to the AP servo power - the only time that will need to be off will be in a failure situations.

With that in mind, alt field and AP power became pullable breakers. Separate batt master and alt switches became a progressive OFF/BATT/BOTH switch. This is more compact, more effectively separates "things I might want to turn off" from "things I will turn on every flight." This has the side effect of providing a nice startup flow - the three red-marked switches, left-right, power up the airplane for starting, then I move to the lower left to prime, arm the starter, and kick things off.

Immediate-action things for loss of engine power remain lower left - fuel pump on, mixture rich, tank switch, starter arm if necessary to attempt a restart. Immediate-action things for electrical issues are in the primary power management group.

Still need to depict some more minor things, but I'm liking how this layout is refining, and it's probably about time to mock it up in the plane and do some chair-flying.

 
Hi Phillip,

Am I correct you are using a remote transponder driven by the Skyview?

If that is true, I still have a couple of questions: Do you plan on flying IFR, and if so where is your second approach approved Nav / approach approved GPS device and what controls it? Skyview alone is not approved for approaches, something I?ve already asked them to enhance...
 
Hi Phillip,

Am I correct you are using a remote transponder driven by the Skyview?

If that is true, I still have a couple of questions: Do you plan on flying IFR, and if so where is your second approach approved Nav / approach approved GPS device and what controls it? Skyview alone is not approved for approaches, something I?ve already asked them to enhance...

Yes, the Skyview transponder is a remote unit.

I'm not sure I understand the second question. I was under the impression that a TSO'd GPS would be sufficient for legal IFR. Obviously, without a NAV radio I'll be limited to GPS navigation and approaches, but I'm OK with that limitation.
 
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