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what to build...how to build...I think i am crazy.

JoeB

Active Member
I am sure you have had this topic a few hundred times, so
well..
sorry.........

I am currently flying a perfectly good 1974 PA-28/180.......
but like most of you I want something
1.)new
2.)not the 300K that Piper/Cessna/Cirrus charge you
3.)Fast 200ish MPH
4.)Around 1000 mile range or better
5.) 4 Seats with some room for cargo
6.) can do a grass strip if I wanted it to
7.) can cross the Rockies/operate out of High density alt with out trouble

With that I have narrowed the search to 2 primary choices.

1. TEAM TANGO's Foxtrot 4
it looks sleek and posts better numbers overall that Anything else out there and seems like a fairly quick build. So far i have been leaning toward that airplane. (www.teamtango.com)

2. Vans RV-10 well you all know the great things about this airplane.


My usual mission right now is myself, my wife our 2 80lb Labs and a bag or 2
for a weekend get a way, and the usual around the flag pole pattern flying.
I am a first time builder, I am very motivated with a supportive, but skeptical spouse on the subject.

I have not had a test flight in either aircraft as I cant find any in my local area of Omaha. NE
I was wondering if anyone has weighed the pros
and cons of these two types? I am stuck and can't really figure out what the best route would be composite or RV.

The RV has awesome support, but for whatever reason the construction seems a little more intimidating.

The Foxtrot only has 2 flying completions, they seem like good airplanes so i am not sure if that is a red flag of concern, a company has to start somewhere.......

I am in the Military and will be spending about 4-6 months a year overseas deployed so i am looking for a project that can be completed with max effort while I am home and but still not take 4 years to finish... I am hoping for a 1-2 year build.......

since I am new to the Builder community Any and all inputs are helpful I just want to be well educated before i end up too far over my head.

thanks

JOE
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Joe, welcome to the good ship VAF:D

It is good to see you aboard.

The specs for the Tango are indeed impressive, gotta agree.

I would urge caution on just reading the stuff on paper-----as you say, there are only 2 of them flying. They do mention that the numbers quoted are for a 300hp engine-----

One thing that can be said for Vans designs, they are almost always rated conservatively.

Also, there are a lot of Rv10s flying, and the support is beyond belief.

I suggest you try to get a ride in each of the planes, and do a seat of the pants comparison.

Good luck,
 
Joe, of course I'm biased...

...but my -10 is not my first RV either. I've flown PA28-180's and compared to either of my RV's, I'd throw rocks at them:)

There are now over 330 -10's flying and a pile more under construction and I personally, haven't read one complaint or unhappy -10 owner. The "other" composite airplane you've looked at has only two flying:eek: a big concern for sure....will they even be around a few years from now....you know Van's will. Why do you think there are over 7,000 RV's flying and at least that many more under construction?

We go into 2500' grass strips with both the -6 and the-10 and also get a 200 MPH TAS and around a 14 1/5 GPH burn. The room and comfort of the -10 is hard to beat as well. Your two 80 Lb dogs is like having only three people aboard and that leaves room for near 300 extra #'s you can carry.

Best,
 
Does the Tango have a web-based "Air Force" support site with thousands of contributors?

It is difficult to overestimate the value of thousands of completed aircraft.

erich
 
Plastic or Metal?

I'm not building yet, but I've been working toward that step for the past year or so. I think another big question you have to answer is whether you prefer to work with metal or composite construction techniques. I suggest you go to a couple EAA SportAir workshops and get some hands on experience with both construction techniques. since you are looking at thousands of hours of hands-on time with the project, you better enjoy the process and not just focus on the finished plane.

I never really even thought composite was the way I wanted to go.
 
Although I'm not in the camp of believing that "anyone" can build one of these as some are (at least not without significant help). Thats a personal evaluation you need to make. Keep this in mind, it looks way more intimidating before you start, than what it actually is in reality.

Its been said many, many times by people smarter and with way more experience than I. Its perseverance that will get you through more than anything else, including technical skills...you have to be "bulldogged" determined to finish it in my opinion. That's key.
 
The Foxtrot only has 2 flying completions, they seem like good airplanes so i am not sure if that is a red flag of concern, a company has to start somewhere.......

I would most definitely consider that a red flag of concern for a first-time builder. Yes, a company has to start somewhere, but let experienced builders work out the construction kinks and build field history on the new design. A novice builder shouldn't be a beta tester....... ;)

Building your own aircraft is a fascinating journey, ensure your enjoyment of it by taking advantage of an existing builder and support base.
 
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Great advice all the way through.

330 is nowhere close to 2. The reality is that you're still a pioneer if you go the 2 route and being a pioneer is nowhere you want to be. Anytime you're off the plans your time easily doubles.

Vans plans are very clear. The airplane performs (it's proven it 330 times). There are numerous mods available and aftermarket products that will save you time. (You did say time was important -right?)

It's a no brainer to me.
 
I am currently flying a perfectly good 1974 PA-28/180.......

The RV has awesome support, but for whatever reason the construction seems a little more intimidating.

since I am new to the Builder community Any and all inputs are helpful I just want to be well educated before i end up too far over my head.

thanks

JOE

As a former PA28/180 owner and currently building a RV-10, I'm highly biased on the choices.

Since you are in Omaha, I would highly recommend talking with Bob Condrey. Bob is in Omaha and just sold his first RV-10 (somebody made him an offer he couldn't refuse at OSH) and is in the process of building another one. There's nothing like seeing a project in person to get perspective.

Trust me, as a first time builder, if I can figure things out and do a good job, just about anyone can.

Feel free to PM or email if you have specific questions.

bob
 
more questions. :)

Thank you everyone for the responses,

Is there anyone in the Omaha/Lincoln NE area that wouldn't mind letting see there -10, I have yet to see on in person,

I am curious how the cabin size compare to the Piper I am flying.

I currently have a 74 PA-28 151/180


I am of the same mindset as everyone else on here,
The numbers for the Foxtrot are tempting,
but there is somthing to be said about 7000 RV's and 300 flying

After seeing this website and spending some time on it I am starting to see the MASSIVE support base for a builder. vs. the 20-40 folks who have built with the other company.

The Foxtrot might be a fine Aircraft, but knowing me, it will be good to be able to get online at 10 PM post a question and have 20 answers by 1030 here..........

I am thinknig I might be a RV builder in the near future.......


for me since time is important, as I am gone a fair amount of time with my line of work......

how long is the build been averaging people??
is it best to buy the kits one at a time, or all at once...
how much time do the quick builds actually save?
does quick build rob you of any building experince? (for repair cert sake)
not too sure about the shipping things to the phillipines for assembly, if it was done in USA I would be more willing to quick build. not a fan of outsourcing, even if its cheaper.


anyways thanks

JOE
 
Joe, I will echo Ron and point out that building the ten is a big job and takes serious time. I have nine months of concerted work into the fuselage alone, with a month or so to go. Three years to finish the first three kits. The quickbuild route would help some, but don't underestimate the time required for a first time builder. I read of ones being built fast, but that just doesn't jive with the reality of my experiences.
 
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go to both factories

I have similar reservations about stuff built offshore.
..until you think that even a Boeing or Cessna has a TON of it's parts made elsewhere, it's just ASSEMBLED here.
Just an idea......
book a $99 plane ticket to Florida, and see the customer completion centre for yourself. Leave your wallet at home! These guys are in the business of selling, remember? (Ask youself why there is a customer completion centre if these are such an easy 1000 hour build!!!) Then come home and build a little fibreglas boat. See how you like that.
Do the same trip to Oregon, get a feel for the operation etc.
Borrow a rivet gun, and/or get the practice kit. Do you like metal? ( ok the -10 has a lot of fibreglas too!)

Imagine you finish, and then want to sell the plane in a couple of years. Which will give you the best return?

If you do buy the Tango, be sure to get ALL the parts in your hands at the same time, just in case they go awol! It's happened at least a million times in the airplane business!
 
You can't go wrong with an RV-10. That said... The Foxtrot is also probably a nice airplane. I haven't flown one, but I'm a composites guru and I think highly of their kit quality.

I'd recommend flying both to decide which you would prefer to own. Then get some hands-on experience with metal and fiberglass to decide which you would like to spend thousands of hours building.

What is the claimed build time of the Foxtrot? Generally speaking, composite kits are more expensive to buy but quicker to build. However, they take a lot longer to sand/fill and paint.
 
how long to build?

Joe, I have the 10th RV-10 kit sold.
It took me 3yrs. and 10 months to build my plane by myself with only my wife helping to buck rivets when two people were required or other two person tasks. I made several modifications also that took lots of time to work through. I worked a full time job as well. Get the quick build wings and fuselage if possible as it will save you a year on the slowbuild. Visit My RV-10.com for a great site on everything you need to know about the 10.


Don Orrick
N410JA
420hrs
 
Joe,

Just sent you a PM with contact info. As Bob L. said, I built and sold one RV-10 and am in the process of building another. I should be able to answer just about any questions you've got (and I've got some cold beer in the fridge...).

Bob (in Omaha)
 
First, friends don't let friends fly plastic airplanes. Seriously I would be very interested in the utility of the aircraft based on wing design. Many of the high end aircraft have very fast takeoff and landing speeds requiring lots of runway. Rv's including the 10 have always had exceptional performance envelopes. That's what got me interested in RVs a dozen or so years back.

Pat
 
Joe,

Careful with the Tango - their completion numbers sound the same as when I looked at them back in 2001-2. In contrast the RV-10 has been available to purchase as a kit since summer of 2003 and there are now 330+ flying and the number of kits sold well over 1100 (empenage/tailcone kits since that's where the number comes from).

I am curious how the cabin size compare to the Piper I am flying.
>> RV-10 cabin is 6 inches wider than a Cherokee and there's a LOT more legroom in both the front and rear seats. I'm 6'1" and fly with the seat moved up 3 notches (around 3") in the tracks.

The Foxtrot might be a fine Aircraft, but knowing me, it will be good to be able to get online at 10 PM post a question and have 20 answers by 1030 here.......... It's also nice to have a huge base of people anyplace you go that are willing to help out.

how long is the build been averaging people??
>>> My first RV-10 was about 2200 hours spread over 4.5 years with several large gaps in the build time due to work.

is it best to buy the kits one at a time, or all at once...
>>> buy one at a time. If you were in Australia or someplace like that it would maybe make sense to get all at once since you'd save a bundle on shipping.

Bob
 
Cold Beer?

If Bob has cold beer ...............I could be convinced to fly my RV 10 to Omaha sometime so you can get a look at one.

Dean
805HL
 
Joe,

I'm also a military guy here in town, live close to the base...only 0.6 miles south of the clinic.

Working on the -10 fuselage now...at the point where I'm almost able to sit inside and make airplane noises.

Give me a ring (I'll PM you my number) -- if you've never driven a rivet, I've got a deal for you.

-Jim
40603
 
Joe,

So you've gotten 3 pages of responses from the RV-10 guys. What did that 1 Tango guy say and what about the other one in the factory? :D:D
 
fehdxl said:
if you've never driven a rivet, I've got a deal for you.

I got to thinking about how my comment could be [mis]-interpreted... so...

...the deal is that I always keep a new Van's toolbox practice kit on-hand and you are welcome to come over, test drive my tools, and I'll show you what I know. Plus you get a tool box out of the deal.

Just let me know,

-Jim
 
There's a fellow in our EAA Chapter 168 building a Foxtrot 4.
It's a pretty nice kit, but IMO, it's no RV-10.
 
Joe,

There are actually 3 RV-10s in work here in the Omaha area. Jim's is a little further along than mine and Steve is really just getting started. I've got plenty of actual data from my first plane along with pix, etc.

You should also consider the local EAA chapter - next meeting is this coming Monday evening at MLE. Give me a call or check the chapter website http://eaa80.org for info.

Dean: there's always a stockpile - you should grab Bruce and come by!

Bob
 
I just toured the Team Tango facility and

my friend (a Bonanza owner) flew the Foxtrot he is considering buying. I am an A&P and an RV-10 builder/flyer (not owner). I was able to see several of the two seaters under construction as well as the construction components of the four seaters. I was impressed with the structure of the Team Tango aircraft and the care with which the kit components were fabricated - the nose gear of the aircraft are actually RV components.. The folks who owned and operated the company were very open about issues that were discovered and corrected during the development process. They support their builder community directly and with a small number of their aircraft in the field, they are able to provide individual attention. If I were interested in building/owning a high-performance composite aircraft, the Team Tango products would be at the top of my list.

That said, the performance and construction of the RV-10 is what I am most familiar with and would be my recommendation. The support from the RV community cannot be beat!
 
Are you sure you want a kit?

I am in the Military and will be spending about 4-6 months a year overseas deployed so i am looking for a project that can be completed with max effort while I am home and but still not take 4 years to finish... I am hoping for a 1-2 year build.......

If I'm reading this right you're hoping to build the airplane with 0.5 to 1 years of actual construction time? Frankly this sounds very ambitious regardless of which kit you choose. I've known experienced builders who could finish in a year of dedicated effort, but the learning phase tends to stretch things out. For example I built my second wing in half the time as the first.

Another alternative is to just buy a completed RV-10, for probably half what you'd end up paying for an equivalent factory ship.
 
What i noticed is that they are pushing an IO-540, which is essentially a 260 hp engine to 300 to 350 hp to quote their performance numbers. That will significantly reduce the TBO and increase the cost of your engine. If you go with a standard 260 HP engine, I suspect their performance numbers would not look as promising.

I'd really like to see some 260 hp numbers for a 4-place version, and post it in KTS and NM please. Then compare them to the RV-10.

The kit itself looks like a quality kit. Just be aware that building a glass airplane is not like building an aluminum one.
 
Building

I'll let everyone else sell you on which plane to build (although, on this website i don't think the "other" guys stand a chance). My only thoughts for you are that you want to build the plane in 1 or 2 years. With you being gone overseas for 4-6 months per year I am willing to bet that a large part of your time back on stateside will be spent with friends/family.

On the bright side, maybe you can talk them into helping you out. There isn't much (atleast up to the point where I'm at on my -10 build) that cannot be done by yourself but there's LOTS of stuff that would be a lot easier with a second or third set of hands. As for the actual physical building part itself, I think you'll decide really quickly on the emp section that "I can definitely do this" or "I don't think I want to do this". I don't personally think that just anybody can build a -10 unless they are determined to do so. Determination cannot be stressed enough. The wing section is pretty monotonous. Deburring rib after rib after rib. Then on to the other wing doing the same thing over and over. It gets pretty hard to look forward to continuing work. Then you complete a section and cannot wait to start the next section. To me it's kind of a roller coaster ride.

I bought my emp kit secondhand in 2005. The VS and rudder were complete and the spar of the HS was completed. I took over at that point. I have gone SSSSLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWWWW build and am now nearly ready to put the bottom wing skins on. I was a lot like you when I first started. I was determined to be done in 2-3 years. Well, marriage happened, and now we're on kid #3, in the meantime my wife (who was only 33 at the time) went through breast cancer, work, rest of family, etc.......

I've often thought about selling my kit and buying a completed airplane but when I do get a few hours to spend in the shop it is a very rewarding few hours. To see the nearly completed tailcone/emp, and nearly finished wings sitting in the cradle knowing that my hands built that is an awesome feeling. Cannot wait til it's finished to see what that feels like.

I've considered taking my kit to a local airport (within 50 miles as I live in Western Kansas and help is VERY sparse) where they've built lots of RV's and letting them help me finish my build. However, for the amount of money they want just to build it I could buy a very nice Cherokee 180 and continue my build myself.

Anyway, you sound like you've done your homework. My only thought for you is don't set any timeframe to be done in. You will have plenty of setbacks that a person really never considers when starting their build. You will also have lots of excellent days. One of the best is when you actually complete your first whole part (in your case it will be the VS). One thing to consider is that every once in a while Vans will come out with a SB. When this happens i drop whatever it is I'm doing on my kit and install the newest SB. This always keeps me up to date and I won't have to do them at a later date.

Sorry to be so long winded but there's a lot of "other" things to think about before purchasing the kit. Whichever kit you decide to build I'm sure you will enjoy. You sound like you have the bug so until you try it you will never know. GOOD LUCK!!!

Bill Britton
 
RVs

I bought my RV4 in September of 2009 and I can tell you that it is the most amazing aircraft that I have ever flown, does everything good. You won't go wrong if you go with a Vans product. Like eveybody is saying, over 7000 flying and plenty more on the way and the support from Vans aircraft is awesome. When they say that when you own an RV you are part of the Vans family, it really is true.

Good Luck in whatever you decide.

Brian Eisner
RV4(C-GRJT)
Halifax NS
Canada
 
I had the same dilemma

Hi,

I'm an RV 7A builder and had the exact same dilemma when I was choosing my kit - except for me, it was in the 2 place category - RV 7A or Tango.

The numbers - performance, price and build time definitely had me leaning towards the Tango 2 initially. I also had some conversations with the company and all indications were that they knew what they were doing. Kitplanes also did a nice article on the Foxtrot.

For me though, reality finally hit. Given that I'm a relatively low time pilot, insurance was an issue. I spoke to Falcon and realized it would take a while for me to get insured in a Tango and the prices quoted to me were rather high.

The next is support. There are 5-8 experienced RV builders within a 20 minute drive from home that have been there before. You can't put a price on that.

Most importantly for me, I took my wife to a weekend course to learn working with metal and another one where we worked with composites. For her, the smell of epoxy in the house and fiberglass dust was a big no-no while she was more than happy bucking rivets, match-drilling, deburring and dimpling. If support is big, support from my spouse definitely tipped the balance.

And in the final analysis, for a first time builder with limited mechanical skills, there's nothing like the confidence of 7000 flying examples and by some estimates many many more under construction.

Regardless of what you choose to build, jump right in. Its a decision you will not regret - I promise you that.
 
Just to add a bit of balance (??) to the discussion, I happen to like working with fiberglass.

If I had a chance to choose a mythical RV that is available in either metal, or premoulded fiberglass, (and the only difference was in the material), I would go FG.

But, then that is just one mans opinion.

And, yes, I have built a FG plane in the past.

I do not dislike either the metal or fiberglass, I just think the lower parts count, and rapid assembly of the fiberglass construction is a winner.
 
Although I'm not in the camp of believing that "anyone" can build one of these as some are (at least not without significant help). Thats a personal evaluation you need to make. Keep this in mind, it looks way more intimidating before you start, than what it actually is in reality.

Its been said many, many times by people smarter and with way more experience than I. Its perseverance that will get you through more than anything else, including technical skills...you have to be "bulldogged" determined to finish it in my opinion. That's key.
I agree 100%. I consider "bulldogged determination" the most important trait/skill I have. I did not know how to do 99% of what I had to do when I started. I could not have ever completed this airplane without many many people helping (and that includes all the insight I received from everyone on this forum) but most importantly, I could not have completed this airplane if I did not have a dogged determination to successfully complete the project.

Not finishing was NOT AN OPTION!

PERSEVERANCE was by far the key to completion for me.
 
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I agree 100%. I consider "bulldogged determination" the most important trait/skill I have. I did not know how to do 99% of what I had to do when I started. I could not have ever completed this airplane without many many people helping (and that includes all the insight I received from everyone on this forum) but most importantly, I could not have completed this airplane if I did not have a dogged determination to successfully complete the project.

Not finishing was NOT AN OPTION!

PERSEVERANCE was by far the key to completion for me.

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

John Calvin Coolidge
 
Realistically you probably won't be able to build a standard -10 kit in 2 years by yourself unless you are very motivated and have a ton of spare time. Even a QB kit might challenge that timetable. Figure 1500-2000 hours for a QB and 2500+ for a standard kit for a first timer as minimums. This is 3-4 hours per day for 2 years, 7 days a week.

I guarantee you won't enjoy doing the cabin top, doors and windows but if you keep grinding away on it (pun intended) those parts will get done like all the other tasks. I hope your wife is patient and understanding...:)

This being said, building your own aircraft will give to a lot of satisfaction, knowledge, new skills and probably be one of the major accomplishments in your life. It is a very rewarding experience on many levels.
 
tool box complete

After a bit of coaching, this is the result. Could very easily be the beginning of an RV grin...

 
RV-10 it is......

kit ordered 1 feb 2011 High Noon ....2010 prices..woo hoo
kit arrived 11 feb 2011 Builder # 41231

VS complete,
should be dimpling the rudder skins tonight.

:) <------ electronic RV grin.........
 
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kit ordered 1 feb 2011 High Noon ....2010 prices..woo hoo
kit arrived 11 feb 2011 Builder # 41231

VS complete,
should be dimpling the rudder skins tonight.

:) <------ electronic RV grin.........
Great news! Remember, rivets don't pound themself. Keep at it!
 
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