What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Plb vs elt as an option legally ? With poll

Which would you prefer and feel safer wilting with a PLB or ELT.

  • Would Prefer a PlB over an ELT for safety.

    Votes: 53 70.7%
  • Would prefer a ELT over a PLB for safety

    Votes: 22 29.3%

  • Total voters
    75
  • Poll closed .

Turbo69bird

Well Known Member
How many of you guys would like EAA pr AOPA to lobby to get PlBs as a legal alternative in experimental aircraft.

The benefits of an elt over a PLB seems to be nothing but long battery life and automatic triggering all other areas it is lacking including portability after a crash, floatation, response time, weight savings etc.


From ELT manufacturer literature:
What are the benefits to upgrading to a E-04 406 ELT?
The 406 MHz beacons transmitted power is 50x greater than the old 121.5 / 243 beacons. Location accuracy without GPS is greatly improved over the 121.5/243 ELT’s. And with GPS location can be as accurate as several hundred feet. With GPS connected, your exact location will be downloaded to Search and Rescue organizations within 10 minutes of activation. Without GPS input location can take up to 3 hours, and accurate to 1- 5 km radius.
 
Last edited:
Automatic activation is the key functionality driving ELT mandates. Very few crashes are foreseen by the flight crew with sufficient advance warning to allow them to divert their attention to triggering a PLB prior to impact.

Additionally, if a PLB were to become mandatory, one would have to consider that carriage of the PLB on ones person would likewise have to be part of the mandate in order to capitalize on the portability of the unit as well as the need for it to be right there in your hands so you can activate it.

Take, for instance, the "sinking airplane" and "burning airplane" scenarios. You've managed to escape the flaming or sinking wreckage. The argument against ELTs has always been that they would be of no use to rescuers in these situations. That same argument applies to the PLB that was left in the airplane, or was thrown from your pocket by impact forces.

At this point in the development of communications technologies it would seem the best method of stacking the odds of survival in your favor is a combination of devices. A breadcrumb-tracking device (SPOT, SpiderTracks, InReach etc) to provide an indication of your last movements, an ELT to serve the needs of marking the point of impact, and a PLB as the failsafe for the two previous items. Add to this list the long-standing low-tech basics like signal mirrors, flares, fire and whistles and you have a pretty comprehensive means of saving your own bacon!
 
PBLT

A friend of mine just crashed his Amphib TU206 in the Jungles of Peru a few days ago. Stalled the aircraft over the jungle tree canopy and against all odd, him and his 3 passengers survived. 406 ELT did not during crashe ...Rescued thanks to PBELT activation. I fly w mine strapped to my chute all the time! Best investment ever!
 
Same as Mitch, I have an Allen Silver SMAK PAK on my chute that holds my PLB. Or it goes in my vest with the radio, mirror, etc.
 
Also If you fly w a plb (and don?t mind ) post what kind and if you like
It or wish you?d give with a different one.

Also the same w a ELT

With our limited weight capacity of you know the weight of the unit and it was A factor include it.
 
I didn't vote because this poll needs a third option of "both." It's not an either-or in my opinion.

I want an ELT because I want it to go off automatically if I am incapacitated. Even if already dead, I want quick closure for my family.

If I'm not incapacitated, I want to be able to use my PLB, either for more accurate locating or because I want to be able to leave the airplane's location and still transmit a strong signal regardless of what has become of the rest of the airplane or of the ELT unit in the airplane.
 
I didn't vote because this poll needs a third option of "both." It's not an either-or in my opinion.

I want an ELT because I want it to go off automatically if I am incapacitated. Even if already dead, I want quick closure for my family.

If I'm not incapacitated, I want to be able to use my PLB, either for more accurate locating or because I want to be able to leave the airplane's location and still transmit a strong signal regardless of what has become of the rest of the airplane or of the ELT unit in the airplane.

Yea. I?m thinking the same thing. I currently carry a PLB as a renter but plan to continue to carry once my -10 is done. Figure it?s a belt and suspenders type of thing.
 
If you did both would you bother with a 406 or just use a 121.5 you can still buy a 121.5 from ack for $125.00 brand new
Cayman Islands and Dominican if I remember correctly only require a PLB.

This wasn’t necessarily meant to be about what you should carry, you can always carry both. I meant it more to be about which you feel should be “required” if any. Otherwise I probably would have put more options in the polll.
 
Last edited:
PLBs are approved as the sole ELT for Australian aircraft provided they meet AS/NZS 4280.2:2300 which I presume is an Australian/New Zealand specification. An example is the GME unit.

Fin 9A
 
A friend of mine just crashed his Amphib TU206 in the Jungles of Peru a few days ago. Stalled the aircraft over the jungle tree canopy and against all odd, him and his 3 passengers survived. 406 ELT did not during crashe ...Rescued thanks to PBELT activation. I fly w mine strapped to my chute all the time! Best investment ever!

It doesn't surprise me that the ELT didn't go off. With the "approach" and "landing" your friend made, there wasn't a hard enough deceleration to trigger it. However, with new ELT's, there should be a panel accessible switch to turn it on. Which can be done in the air or on the ground.

(Good to hear your friend and passengers made it out without harm!)
 
Do any of those( sat tracker) have emergency switches? Didn?t think they did and if they do do they first have to go through the seller then to search and rescue or straight to search and rescue?
 
A couple of additional thoughts here...

1) If carrying a PLB, please, when you register it, include in the registry information a note that clearly says the PLB will be carried in your aircraft. We have had one rescue in British Columbia go badly because the SAR folks didn't know the PLB was carried by a pilot.

2) At the moment there are no "bread crumb" devices which use G-switch activation of their "emergency" transmission. They all require a human finger to push that button.

3) After listening to many, many pilots talk about ELTs, PLBs, SPOT, etc, I believe this poll would most accurately reflect reality if it offered a third option of a re-designed "breadcrumb tracker" which included G-switch activation of its distress messaging and a 406MHz beacon where that 406MHz beacon is priced at PLB cost rather than ELT cost. Ultimately this would yield a MUCH better solution, one that would give SAR a history of your position and velocity, a human-activated distress beacon via both the Spot/InReach/Spidertracks type of satellite network as well as a crash-activated alert via the 406MHz SARSAT network.

We are getting closer to having the breadcrumb trail established via ADSB, particularly via Aireon's satellite-based ADSB. I remain ever hopeful that we will evolve toward a multi-faceted approach to signalling distress for aviators rather than our single solution as mandated today. Technological advancements have really come a long way toward helping find downed aircraft. This is a good thing indeed.
 
Last edited:
2) At the moment there are no "bread crumb" devices which use G-switch activation of their "emergency" transmission. They all require a human finger to push that button.

Spidertracks does not have a G switch but an alert process will be triggered after 15 minutes if the unit were to stop transmitting position reports without being shut down correctly as would likely happen in a serious accident.

EDIT. Damage, loss of satellite view and the fact that the spider unit runs on aircraft power is why it is likely to stop transmitting after a serious accident.

Fin 9A
 
Last edited:
Thanks for sharing those details, Fin.

From what I've been hearing from both US and Canadian customers, the routing of Spidertracks emergency notifications seems to work well in both these jurisdictions.

Not having used a Spidertracks unit, what is the proper shutdown procedure to avoid setting off this "inactivity" alarm? I can just see how I'd be the guy who would forget to hit the "home safe and sound" button...
 
Canadian Joy,

The Spidertracks unit (mine is an S3) goes into “monitor” mode at 30 kt (from memory) at takeoff indicated by a steady blue light. After landing and below 30 kt it can be shut off by pressing the monitor button which makes the blue light flash while it communicates the shut down with the base station in New Zealand. After about 10 seconds to a minute or so the blue light goes out indicating successful communication with the base station and power can shut off to the unit.

If you stuff up the shut down, after 15 minutes you and your nominated contacts will receive alert texts and emails with the ability to cancel or escalate the alert by replying. If, after a further 15 minutes and no one has cancelled, Search and Rescue will be notified.

Edit: You can also stop a pending 15 minute alert by pushing the monitor button to go back into monitor mode and then shutting down correctly. This is preferable to concerned calls from your nominated contacts wondering if you have crashed!!

Fin 9A
 
Last edited:
I've carried both for many years, especailly on our trips to Alaska. The SPOT provides 10 minute tracking updates to everyone back home, so at least there is a trail.

Yes, I hope to be able to activate the SPOT if neededl, but if I'm incapacitated (bird strike), I sure hope the 406 ELT works. I would also plan on activating the ELT if it didn't activate and I was safely on the ground. Of course, if going down in some remote place, I would prbably activate the ELT with the panel button while still airborne.

I heard an interesting tidbit once by the person in charge of airborne rescue operations in Canada. He said they had an unlimited budget for a downed aircraft with an ELT activation, but not so with PLB's/SPOTS, as they are used by lots more than aviation people.

I plan on keeping both. :)

Vic
 
I'm also in the BOTH camp. I have a 406 ELT installed and I'm also looking at the PLB but haven't researched it enough yet.
 
Canadian Joy,

The Spidertracks unit (mine is an S3) goes into ?monitor? mode at 30 kt (from memory) at takeoff indicated by a steady blue light. After landing and below 30 kt it can be shut off by pressing the monitor button which makes the blue light flash while it communicates the shut down with the base station in New Zealand. After about 10 seconds to a minute or so the blue light goes out indicating successful communication with the base station and power can shut off to the unit.

If you stuff up the shut down, after 15 minutes you and your nominated contacts will receive alert texts and emails with the ability to cancel or escalate the alert by replying. If, after a further 15 minutes and no one has cancelled, Search and Rescue will be notified.

Edit: You can also stop a pending 15 minute alert by pushing the monitor button to go back into monitor mode and then shutting down correctly. This is preferable to concerned calls from your nominated contacts wondering if you have crashed!!

Fin 9A

Thanks for providing these educational details, Fin. I think I would likely frequently stuff up the shut-down routine unless that blue flashing light was annoyingly in my direct line of sight. Hmmm... I've seen me do some pretty dumb things!
 
safety

I have a 8 year old 121 elt that is being swapped out this year for a 406. That is required in Canada this year and for $500 seems a pretty wise spend.

I have run a spot for years and loved it..kind of. When it worked it was great so family could follow and the buttons allowed you to text a pile of people easy that you were safe at each stop. BUT... it seems to drop a lot so over the last few years many trip we had people concerned as no tracks for 30 minutes and had similar issues with following friends spots. Very concerning if used for safety tool. Also some stories of not good response when activated. Costs have gone way up from the days they gave out spots at kosh and you just pay the annual fees. Cancelled that and got a 406 PLB in the mail for this season.

Also adding ads b this year so 406 elt 406 plb, and ads b tracking....if they still cant find me with all that gear.... that is ok.
 
I have a 8 year old 121 elt that is being swapped out this year for a 406. That is required in Canada this year and for $500 seems a pretty wise spend.
Um... Do you have a reference for that requirement? I don't recall any legislation changing.
 
Note: As of Jan 2019 the FAA has prohibited the sale of 121.5 mhz ELT's.



Idk I just know that ack still shows it as a special order item in the literature on the 406 version for $125.00 it?s kind of funny the way it reads it?s like here?s our 406 but by the way you can still buy a 121.5 for waaayyyy less.
 
In 2019, the manufacture, importation, or sale of 121.5 MHz ELTs became prohibited in the United States per an FCC final rule, but the new rule does not prohibit aircraft operators from continuing to use 121.5-MHz ELTs now installed in aircraft, nor does it cut off the availability of batteries or other replacement parts.
 
Curiously, the regs on ELT requirements (91.207) specifically mention

"...attached to the airplane an approved personal type...or automatic type... emergency locator transmitter..."

I've always wondered if that was a reference to some a PLB that had been approved at some time. I've asked some manufacturers, but have been unable to identify such an approved device. My point in bringing this up is to explore the possibility that PLB language is already in the regs.

There has been so much advance in miniature, inexpensive, and capable 406 mHz PLB's, that the ELT requirement could (should) be well served with PLBs. Just as current ELTs are mounted somewhat "permanently" on the airframe (in the cockpit in my case) a PLB can be so mounted. Then there could be a G-switch in such mounting that the PLB could simply connect to. In case of a crash, the PLB has a chance for self activation or the pilot (hopefully) can manually activate at some point.
 
Um... Do you have a reference for that requirement? I don't recall any legislation changing.


I have been swamped in non flying things the last year but i was sure we had to have them replaced by year end. After your post I went to transport canada to see. Must have been my error. I do most of my flying in sw ontario and a lot in US. I had a list of must do upgrades this summer fall and ads b and 406 where "must do's" i had noted. Maybe i just am hearing voices again. Haha. Anyway doing both and should be good in US and Canada going forward after those.
 
I have a 8 year old 121 elt that is being swapped out this year for a 406. That is required in Canada this year and for $500 seems a pretty wise spend.

Just can?t see what a bigger heavier elt product should be more than the smaller lighter more advanced PLb.

Simple answer is because it?s required , anything required brings a premium cause you?ve got to buy it!

The weight savings is the most important thing to me, personally. Most planes go down because of due starvation or being over weight. Either way lighter helps the problem. If I bring most of my friends up I can bring 10 gallons or less of fuel. Every lb I can get out of that bird is a plus.
.
 
Curiously, the regs on ELT requirements (91.207) specifically mention

"...attached to the airplane an approved personal type...or automatic type... emergency locator transmitter..."

...

There has been so much advance in miniature, inexpensive, and capable 406 mHz PLB's, that the ELT requirement could (should) be well served with PLBs. Just as current ELTs are mounted somewhat "permanently" on the airframe (in the cockpit in my case) a PLB can be so mounted. Then there could be a G-switch in such mounting that the PLB could simply connect to. In case of a crash, the PLB has a chance for self activation or the pilot (hopefully) can manually activate at some point.

Once it's mounted to the airplane, it's no different than any other locator though... In a crash, it could be under the plane, destroyed by impact, etc. etc. and even if it activates it'll never get a signal out. The value in the PLB is that if the occupant can extricate themselves from the twisted wreckage, and the PLB is in his pocket, they can pull it out and activate it under a clear sky.

A G-switch would be very susceptible to impacts from non-life-threatening events... Hitting the canopy edge while getting in/out of the airplane could give it a 10G shock, for example. Dropping a tablet on it in flight could do the same.
 
I have been swamped in non flying things the last year but i was sure we had to have them replaced by year end. After your post I went to transport canada to see. Must have been my error. I do most of my flying in sw ontario and a lot in US. I had a list of must do upgrades this summer fall and ads b and 406 where "must do's" i had noted. Maybe i just am hearing voices again. Haha. Anyway doing both and should be good in US and Canada going forward after those.
Good, I have been following this whole issue very closely and was fairly certain nothing had changed. At this time there is no legislation requiring a 406MHz ELT in Canada, nor is there a schedule for any to be finalized.

I have a 121.5 ELT and a SPOT and am watching the changes in technology in the hopes that I can avoid equipping with a 406 and then having to replace it with an ADS-B-based solution that gets mandated 6 months later.
 
Once it's mounted to the airplane, it's no different than any other locator though... In a crash, it could be under the plane, destroyed by impact, etc. etc. and even if it activates it'll never get a signal out. The value in the PLB is that if the occupant can extricate themselves from the twisted wreckage, and the PLB is in his pocket, they can pull it out and activate it under a clear sky.

A G-switch would be very susceptible to impacts from non-life-threatening events... Hitting the canopy edge while getting in/out of the airplane could give it a 10G shock, for example. Dropping a tablet on it in flight could do the same.


A g switch that must be armed before each flight as a separate activation devise wouldn?t though. So the normal operation of a plb could be kept separate. Flip a switch and put it into g switch mode for flight use.
 
Agree with turbo69bird. At any rate, my original idea as stated was for the G-switch to be part of the mounting attached to the frame, not the PLB itself. With the small size of most PLBs it could be mounted within convenient reach of the pilot giving its access almost equal to being on one's person.
 
Agree with turbo69bird. At any rate, my original idea as stated was for the G-switch to be part of the mounting attached to the frame, not the PLB itself. With the small size of most PLBs it could be mounted within convenient reach of the pilot giving its access almost equal to being on one's person.

That’s pretty interesting Idea. Don’t know that it would qualify for the current g switch rule though unless it had a 1 lb weight on the switch. Which might make it qualify. One things for sure if there’s a way to make something qualify someone from VAF will figure it out.

Although a lot of people I talk with say the PLB already qualifys including a DPE I talked with about it.

It’s all how you interpret the rule I guess. I certainly think that for non commercial use a PLB should be an option. Or maybe just for experimentals ���� based on this poll it seems a lot of others feel the same way!
 
Last edited:
It would be nice if the PLB manufacturers would consider a wireless activation option. I'd like to have the PLB strapped to me, but with a wireless option to allow activation by a G-switch, BRS handle, canopy eject, etc.

I haven't looked into them that much, but I'm assuming there's a window of time you can deactivate them? Say your engine quits- it would be nice to activate it, then once you've made a safe landing, deactivate it. If the landing doesn't end up being so safe, then they're already notified to look for you.

My current project is single place, so I don't legally have to have an ELT, which makes this thread even more interesting to me.

Thanks,
Rusty
 
I'm assuming there's a window of time you can deactivate them?
Thanks,
Rusty

Yes, there is a time to deactivate... the first 49 seconds after activation. That's all you get - after that a valid distress signal is sent as a 406MHz transmission.
 
Yes, there is a time to deactivate... the first 49 seconds after activation. That's all you get - after that a valid distress signal is sent as a 406MHz transmission.

I posted a followup question, but got it answered by ACK before anyone could reply. The question was- how long until the first burst goes out, and how certain is it to get to the Satellite.

Apparently the design specs for the system are that the first burst goes out in 50 sec, plus or minus 2.5 sec. If the antenna is completely intact, there is a near 100% expectation that the first burst will reach the satellite in N America. Considering all the mountains I have around here, I think I'll be installing a 406 ELT.

Thanks,
Rusty
 
Last edited:
Back
Top