New RV3B Panel with aera 660, G5 and Autopilot

I am starting the process of a small makeover for my currently flying RV-3B. The list includes gear stiffeners, the new Rocket RV-3 small spring swiveling tailwheel and a complete panel makeover.

I am basically looking for a functional VFR panel with an autopilot for cross-countries when they come up. As many RV3 flyers know the 3 files as nice as a Supermarine Spitfire but this same sporty handling can be tedious on a long cross-country in turbulence. Every time I try to use the GPSMAP 696 located between my ankles forward of the control stick I end up doing barrel rolls while heading for Mexico. Hence the re-do with autopilot.

At OSH 2016 I procured a Garmin G5 backup EFIS with battery, two GSA 28 smart autopilot servos with generic bracket kits, a GMC 307 autopilot control panel and a Navworx ADS600-EXP ADSB UAT unit. I have an aera 660 portable GPS, GDL 39 3D ADS-B AHRS unit, a GTX 327 Mode C digital transponder and GTR 200 transceiver.

Here is a photo of the current panel (which shall eventually become the "before" shot):




Having gone through many iterations as elaborate as a G3X 7" display and IFR capability and other configurations I finally settled on the above equipment list. I intend to mount the GTX 327 on the right cockpit side cover where the current King KX-155 is located to keep it off the panel. A transponder is not an important item to have front and center. In fact I give transponders the bottom of the importance order for the pilot so may as well have it out of the way. I am also a privacy nut hence the Navworx UAT ADS-B unit controlled by the mode C GTX 327 for anonymous capability. Even if it costs more, doesn't allow my RV-3 to fly over 18,000 feet, or limits international flight, I am going UAT. Long live the Bill of Rights.

That being said here is a layout I have come up with taking into account the canopy frame bow overlap on the top of the panel:



I plan on re-using the 3 1/8" airspeed indicator and altimeter as I am still leery of putting all my eggs in the G5 basket. 2 1/4" instruments would be nice and more compact but I already have the 3 1/8" units.

Here is a quick and dirty rendering of the same I did:




I have posted a couple of schematics on the G5 thread but here is my latest preliminary schematic of my wiring based the above panel:




I am looking for comments from the RV3 crowd. Does this type of panel make sense for a VFR RV3? How about the placement of components from an ergonomic standpoint? Would it be worth the AMUs to s***can the analog instruments, the aera 660 and the CGR-30P (no gottie) and use everything else with a 7" G3X touch? I have that layout too. Having attended the excellent Garmin Experimental Avionics Seminar at Walt's shop at 52F this past weekend gave the above panel design pangs of inadequacy that has taken a couple of days to get over. But I *think* I am back on track.

Jim

P.S. I drug an RV-8 hangar mate of mine to the Garmin Seminar at Walts who was only interested in a couple of G5s to replace his old Blue Mountain junk. Prior to attending he insisted he wanted to stay with his steam gauges and legacy nav/coms. He ended up so impressed by Walt, his shop and the Garmin equipment he is throwing in 100%. He is already working with Walt and has accused me of tricking him into a glass panel intervention.

My RV-3B is a long way from flying and right now my flying plane uses steam gauges. With that caveat, I've got to say that your new panel layout sure looks very workable and clear.

Nicely done.

Dave

I've flown my 3b from coast to coast with foreflight on a simple iPhone. I would scrap the panel mount gps and increase the screen size of the efis.

Rob,

You devil on my shoulder you. Perhaps my subconscious was secretly waiting to hear that.

Nope. Not me. I must resist.

Hmmmm. Ain't any of us getting any younger.

Jim

A couple of comments... Take them with the size of grain of salt you feel appropriate!

1) What's the cost of the EI engine instrument? Not sure how it would stack up against the cost of experimental engine monitoring stuff. Maybe better value would be had from substituting something like a GRT Mini in that same location with an EIS4000 engine monitor box tucked away out of sight. That way you would have an engine monitor that could double as a primary flight instrument.

Which leads me to...

2) Those 3 1/8" instruments are what you will continue to fly with as long as they are showing numbers that are bigger and easier to read than the G5. As you say, we're not getting any younger - as we age, bigger is better when it comes to primary flight instruments and aging eyes. Downsizing the steam gauges and up-sizing the EFIS is a better trade-off for long-term satisfaction.

2a) Your mission is, as stated, VFR. Why have any backup primary flight instruments? The 172 you might rent from time to time doesn't have 2 airspeed indicators and 2 altimeters. Why do you need backups in your VFR airplane? I make this comment from the perspective of a guy with a VFR airplane who installed an EFIS front and center, and kept his 3 1/8" ASI, ALT, VSI and T&B. Now, after flying this configuration since 2007, I would say I have used the steam gauges exactly... zero times. They are wasted space in the panel. I should have used that space for a fancy EFIS-like engine monitor.

3) the Autopilot controller doesn't have to be front and center. If sticking with the current equipment list, I would suggest you consider placing the A/P controller either above or below the Comm radio, move the G5 top and center of the panel and the GPS below the G5. This will make for a much improved mental picture as you're flying along.

4) I haven't spent much time studying Garmin's installation requirements for the GMC307, so again, apply a huge grain of salt here... In your wiring diagram is the bi-directional RS232 link from the roll servo to GMC307 the link that's making the GMC307 aware of aircraft attitude, ground track, bearing to waypoint, etc?

rph142 said:

I've flown my 3b from coast to coast with foreflight on a simple iPhone. I would scrap the panel mount gps and increase the screen size of the efis.

Click to expand...

Okay Rob. As long as we're dreaming...
Here is what that could be interpreted as with a G3X Touch 7" screen. I prefer an separate engine monitor due to the small screen size of the 7" touch display.

Here is what that might look like, Mark. I really do like your idea of the G5 top and center. I took the liberty of replacing the aera 660 with a 796 to make best use of the panel real estate. I have also decided that the AirGizmo mounts take too much space so I would probably surface mount the area, whether 660 or 796:

Canadian_JOY said:

A couple of comments... Take them with the size of grain of salt you feel appropriate!

1) What's the cost of the EI engine instrument? Not sure how it would stack up against the cost of experimental engine monitoring stuff. Maybe better value would be had from substituting something like a GRT Mini in that same location with an EIS4000 engine monitor box tucked away out of sight. That way you would have an engine monitor that could double as a primary flight instrument.

Which leads me to...

2) Those 3 1/8" instruments are what you will continue to fly with as long as they are showing numbers that are bigger and easier to read than the G5. As you say, we're not getting any younger - as we age, bigger is better when it comes to primary flight instruments and aging eyes. Downsizing the steam gauges and up-sizing the EFIS is a better trade-off for long-term satisfaction.

2a) Your mission is, as stated, VFR. Why have any backup primary flight instruments? The 172 you might rent from time to time doesn't have 2 airspeed indicators and 2 altimeters. Why do you need backups in your VFR airplane? I make this comment from the perspective of a guy with a VFR airplane who installed an EFIS front and center, and kept his 3 1/8" ASI, ALT, VSI and T&B. Now, after flying this configuration since 2007, I would say I have used the steam gauges exactly... zero times. They are wasted space in the panel. I should have used that space for a fancy EFIS-like engine monitor.

3) the Autopilot controller doesn't have to be front and center. If sticking with the current equipment list, I would suggest you consider placing the A/P controller either above or below the Comm radio, move the G5 top and center of the panel and the GPS below the G5. This will make for a much improved mental picture as you're flying along.

4) I haven't spent much time studying Garmin's installation requirements for the GMC307, so again, apply a huge grain of salt here... In your wiring diagram is the bi-directional RS232 link from the roll servo to GMC307 the link that's making the GMC307 aware of aircraft attitude, ground track, bearing to waypoint, etc?

Click to expand...

Ah yes... all this panel stuff brings back memories.
Built this in 2010; never installed. Inherited N313RV and considering a panel update. Thinking a 10" screen and g-meter... done. Yes, I'm addicted to symmetry.

If bigger is better..

..why not go with a G3X 10" screen and remote mount the transponder and Comm, leaving only the G5 mini and the AP head in the panel? If only I had made it this far with my RV-3.. Alas, I must sell it.

ppilotmike said:

..why not go with a G3X 10" screen and remote mount the transponder and Comm, leaving only the G5 mini and the AP head in the panel? If only I had made it this far with my RV-3.. Alas, I must sell it.

Click to expand...

The 10" won't fit properly. Unless I extended my panel down about an inch and trimmed the control stick. Phooey. It would be cheaper than the 7" display combined with a GCR-30P.

Jim

I just got a phone call to ferry a newly finished Backcountry SQ2 from Florida to Texas equipped with a Dynon Skyview Touch (and movabile leading edge slats). That should provide for a nice comparison of the competitive glass panel offerings. But at this point I am still wanting to stay Garmin.

Jim

Glad to see you are open to a little brainstorming, Jim.

I've told this story here before about upgrading the panel in my "daily flyer". I had a cardboard mockup of the new panel sitting above the couch in the living room. I was within 24 hours of cutting metal when a pilot friend stopped in for an improptu visit. He took one look at the panel and suggested a change. I scratched my noggin, moved the paper outlines of the equipment around in accordance with his suggestion, and realized how much better his idea was.

An extra set of eyes, or an extra few sets of eyes, really can be helpful. Even better if you get input from the opposite sex as they often see things from quite a different perspective. My wife's input, and that of our daughter, into design decisions on our current build project have yielded some pretty terrific improvements over what I might have come up with on my own.

Garmin comparison

Jim,

Please let us know how the Garmin costs stacked up. Also, I'm curious what your final panel setup looks like, so post a pic, once you've decided. Thanks.

I have swung back to basics again. I have everthing I need except for the SIRS Pegasus Compass and Electronics International CGR-30P:



I will probably surface mount the aera 660 with a Garmin integral bare wire mount kit (no need to cut panel) or make a custom flush mount with tilting screws similar to what Aviat does in the Husky. Here are three photos showing the front and back of the Aviat factory mount for a GPSMAP 496:





I'm not sure it's worth the effort to make a custom flush mount for an aera 660 since technology changes so quickly.

I would plan to mount the GTX-327 transponder either on the forward right arm rest area where currently the KX-155 is or down between the fuel gauges down between the pilot's ankles where the 696 dock currently resides (see original post).

The open expanse of unused area on the right side of the panel should facilitate RAM mounting a smart phone, iPad mini etc. while keeping future expansion opportunities.

As for the compass I love the SIRS products and am thinking the Pegasus panel mount as shown, although the aircraft already has a precision-type vertical card panel mounted compass (picture in original post). I wouldn't rule out a pedestal compass (SIRS Navigator) but don't know where it might mount as neatly. I have seen installations where the compass is mounted to the canopy frame and moves 90 degrees with the canopy swing. I'm not sure what the compass thinks of all that. I like a good old fashioned compass. Plus the G5 doesn't have a remote magnetometer option when in stand-alone configuration as configured here.

Jim

Are you absolutely sold on Garmin?

You could pick up a used Dynon D10A and an EMS-D10 and wire them together. They share a form factor, and when connected can share screens as well. You could swap over to an ILS screen on one or the other when you're doing navigation, swap back to flight instruments or engine instruments when needed, and exchange screens left and right (or top and bottom, depending how you orient them) between the units. They can even drive an autopilot without an external set of controls, cleaning the panel up even more. They do make an external autopilot control head though, which I agree would be a good idea.

Why not go with a single G3x touch?...it'll do/control everything and would be a super clean installation. You could remote mount your com and transponder if you wanted to and you wouldn't even need that 305/307 autopilot controller. So, a single G3x touch literally becomes your EFIS, GPS, moving map, autopilot, engine monitor, com and transponder controller, ADS-B in and out (with the proper Garmin transponder), XM weather and music, etc. Why hodgepodge a bunch of other stuff together when this one unit can do it all when connected to its associated (and remotely mounted) equipment?? In my -7, I have a dual touch screen setup, but for your installation the single screen would be perfect...and with the other associated Garmin equipment, everything works in perfect harmony. Wow, I'm starting to sound like a Garmin salesman!! LOL!! In reality, IMHO, I just think it's good equipment and if paired together with the proper equipment, you can come out with a super clean and very functional panel. Now in my -4, it's a little bit of a different story. I have a 496 that I'd love to swap out for the new 660 and pair it with the 345 transponder, which would give me ADS-B in and out....however, the 660 doesn't offer XM "yet"....(I'm holding my breath Garmin). I know that with ADS-B you get free weather, but I still like my XM weather and music. So, until Garmin upgrades the 660 with XM, I guess I'll keep my 496 right where it is.