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Phase I Fly Off

TXFlyGuy

Well Known Member
Here is my dilemma...a test pilot will fly the first 15-20 (+/-) hours on my plane. For me to fly it, and be covered by insurance, I must fly with the test pilot for 5 hours. Note the test pilot is not a CFI, but he is recognized by my insurance company as an expert in my aircraft type.

Am I legally allowed to fly in the back seat, with my test pilot in the front seat during the 40 hour Phase I? My aircraft is full dual control.

And I plan to fly off the remaining time after my test pilot is happy with the aircraft.

I am getting differing answers on this.
 
Be sure to tell your airworthiness inspector you plan to do so. My DAR was not familiar with the additional pilot program and had drafted my limitations to not include it. Luckily we talked about it before he came out. He changed the language on the limitations. Now me and my test pilot are doing phase 1 and doing transition training at same time. Killing 2 birds with one stone.
 
Not only does the Operation Limitations need to state, but you must document some inspections of the aircraft prior to doing the 2nd pilot program.

I did the 2nd pilot from hour zero and found it very helpful and 11 months later have over 150 hours on my airplane now.
 
Thanks for all of the input. I will advise my DAR of the flight test plans.

Just to reiterate and clarify, since right now is the exact time to make sure everyone's good to go, your test pilot must meet a set of specific requirements to be approved as an additional pilot (meaning, flying with you in phase one) per the requirements of AC 90-116. You'll have to get the proper language in your aircraft op limits to allow the additional pilot, and the additional qualified pilot will need to meet the specific qualification criteria outlined in 90-116 as well.

It's a great program. But, several things to evaluate and determine ahead of time to make sure eligibility requirements are met.
 
Just to reiterate and clarify, since right now is the exact time to make sure everyone's good to go, your test pilot must meet a set of specific requirements to be approved as an additional pilot (meaning, flying with you in phase one) per the requirements of AC 90-116. You'll have to get the proper language in your aircraft op limits to allow the additional pilot, and the additional qualified pilot will need to meet the specific qualification criteria outlined in 90-116 as well.

It's a great program. But, several things to evaluate and determine ahead of time to make sure eligibility requirements are met.

My test pilot is the former factory Chief Pilot / Test Pilot. He exceeds all requirements by a wide margin.
 
Need a little explaining here...

The FAR's say you must perform the following to qualify for the APP:

1. Mixture and idle speed check.
2. Mag check.
3. Cold cylinder check.
4. Carb heat check.
5. Fuel flow check.
6. Unusable fuel check.
7. Compression check.

My engine is a brand new, zero time, factory (GM) crate engine. With full ECU control. So some of these tests will not apply.

What do they want in a fuel flow check? We have a dual fuel pump installation, and the fuel flows to the engine perfectly.

How exactly do you check unusable fuel? Fill the tanks, and run the engine until fuel starvation occurs, and then tip the plane up and see if you can drain any additional fuel?

Pardon my elementary questions, but I honestly do not know the answers.

Thanks!
 
My test pilot is the former factory Chief Pilot / Test Pilot. He exceeds all requirements by a wide margin.

Need to be careful here. This guy is not a CFI and you likely don't have insurance coverage until after your 5 hours of flying with him. If you wish to be insured, your buddy must be the PIC. In that case, you likely do not have the qual's to be a QP. If you are the pilot, your buddy can be the QP. But now you have an issue with the insurance company if an accident occurs, as you haven't met the requirements of your policy.

Things are different when the QP is also a CFI and the policy asks for x hours of dual. There might be some loop holes to allow the QP to operate as PIC. I never study'ed that aspect deeply.

Larry
 
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Need a little explaining here...

The FAR's say you must perform the following to qualify for the APP:

1. Mixture and idle speed check.
2. Mag check.
3. Cold cylinder check.
4. Carb heat check.
5. Fuel flow check.
6. Unusable fuel check.
7. Compression check.

My engine is a brand new, zero time, factory (GM) crate engine. With full ECU control. So some of these tests will not apply.

What do they want in a fuel flow check? We have a dual fuel pump installation, and the fuel flows to the engine perfectly.

How exactly do you check unusable fuel? Fill the tanks, and run the engine until fuel starvation occurs, and then tip the plane up and see if you can drain any additional fuel?

Pardon my elementary questions, but I honestly do not know the answers.

Thanks!

I am guessing that you are not talking about an RV here, or we’d al know the “factory chief pilot” that you are talking about. That’s OK - everyone is here to learn.

However, you have to read AC 90-116 very carefully - in summary, the airplane has to be built EXACTLY to the kit specifications, and with an engine as specified by the kit company. It has to be a kit that is listed in the “Revised Listing of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits” (essentially, the list of airplanes that meet the 51% rule - but it must be specifically listed).

A fuel flow check documents th maximum gallons/hour that the fuel system can flow - you have to use the pumps (or gravity) to flow into a bucket and do the measurement. This test is listed in the FAA Flight Test Advisory Circular.

Unusable fuel is how much is still in teh system after the engine quits, yes. Figuring that out can take a little math of How much you put in initially, then how much you put back in after the engine quits (becasue it is not always the same as “how much you can drain out after the engine quits - there is a difference between unusable and untrainable....).

Read the entire AC90-116 - it is not just a “grab a qualified pilot and go flying” program - it is a measured, carefully thought out test program that surprisingly doesn’t apply to as many airplanes as we might think, even though it might be called out in your Ops Lims. Just because your Ops Lims say that you can use it, the airplane and pilots still have to qualify per the AC requirements!

If you can satisfy all of the requirements, then use it and enjoy.

Paul
 
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Need to be careful here. This guy is not a CFI and you likely don't have insurance coverage until after your 5 hours of flying with him. If you wish to be insured, your buddy must be the PIC. In that case, you likely do not have the qual's to be a QP. If you are the pilot, your buddy can be the QP. But now you have an issue with the insurance company if an accident occurs, as you haven't met the requirements of your policy.

Things are different when the QP is also a CFI and the policy asks for x hours of dual. There might be some loop holes to allow the QP to operate as PIC. I never study'ed that aspect deeply.

Larry

Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.

edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.

Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?
 
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I am guessing that you are not talking about an RV here, or we’d al know the “factory chief pilot” that you are talking about. That’s OK - everyone is here to learn.

However, you have to read AC 90-116 very carefully - in summary, the airplane has to be built EXACTLY to the kit specifications, and with an engine as specified by the kit company. It has to be a kit that is listed in the “Revised Listing of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits” (essentially, the list of airplanes that meet the 51% rule - but it must be specifically listed).

A fuel flow check documents th maximum gallons/hour that the fuel system can flow - you have to use the pumps (or gravity) to flow into a bucket and do the measurement. This test is listed in the FAA Flight Test Advisory Circular.

Unusable fuel is how much is still in teh system after the engine quits, yes. Figuring that out can take a little math of How much you put in initially, then how much you put back in after the engine quits (becasue it is not always the same as “how much you can drain out after the engine quits - there is a difference between unusable and untrainable....).

Read the entire AC90-116 - it is not just a “grab a qualified pilot and go flying” program - it is a measured, carefully thought out test program that surprisingly doesn’t apply to as many airplanes as we might think, even though it might be called out in your Ops Lims. Just because your Ops Lims say that you can use it, the airplane and pilots still have to qualify per the AC requirements!

If you can satisfy all of the requirements, then use it and enjoy.

Paul

Thanks for the info! Big help in giving good direction how to proceed.
 
Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.
edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.
Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?

No, and neither can an FAA inspector.
 
No, and neither can an FAA inspector.

I thought so.

So in my case a QP (Factory Test Pilot) will do the initial AIT.

b. Scenario 2. Another pilot tests the aircraft, then the QP brings the BP up to speed. In this scenario, the BP decides to have another pilot do all of the aircraft testing required by the ITP. Though highly recommended, this pilot need not be a QP, since the flights will be conducted with a sole occupant on board. Now that the test aircraft has performed all of the required AIT items outlined in the ITP, the appropriate airframe logbook entry is made. Once the AIT items are completed, a QP, who may or may not be the same individual who conducted the initial tests, accompanies the BP in flight. The BP then personally performs, in the test aircraft, all of the required BPML items outlined in the ITP and makes the appropriate airframe logbook entry. At this point, both the BP and the test aircraft have completed the requirements for the ITP, so the qualifications of the additional pilot are reduced to the OP level.

So does the Builder Pilot need to meet any special requirements here, other than currency requirements such as a BFR and landings?
 
I'd make sure that you have a very clear understanding (in writing) with your insurance company as to what sort of time you need. If it's just 5 hours in type, then you'll be legal (however foolish it may be to not secure proper transition training) after that amount of PIC time - which riding in back with a non-CFI QP upfront will not get you. If you need 5 hours dual in type, then only a CFI can do it for you, no matter how much time/experience your QP may have.

Why not do it right and just go get a proper checkout rather than trying to see whether the process can be shortcut with the non-CFI QP?
 
I'd make sure that you have a very clear understanding (in writing) with your insurance company as to what sort of time you need. If it's just 5 hours in type, then you'll be legal (however foolish it may be to not secure proper transition training) after that amount of PIC time - which riding in back with a non-CFI QP upfront will not get you. If you need 5 hours dual in type, then only a CFI can do it for you, no matter how much time/experience your QP may have.

Why not do it right and just go get a proper checkout rather than trying to see whether the process can be shortcut with the non-CFI QP?

No shortcuts. The insurance company requires that I get 5 hours with the company test pilot. This is the checkout time. And it will be a proper and thorough checkout. They know he is not a CFI. And they know the test pilot very, very well.
 
Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.

edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.

Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?

Let test pilot do the first 8 or so hours to get past the first gate of the program. Once that is done, an Additional Pilot (AP) can fly with the main pilot. The AP requirements aren't really more than a PPL and medical. QP is only required for that first phase of Phase I. Hours and specific test completion create the move to the second phase of the APP, where APs and QPs are allowed.

Larry
 
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Let test pilot do the first 8 or so hours to get past the first gate of the program. Once that is done, an Additional Pilot (AP) can fly with the main pilot. The AP requirements aren't really more than a PPL and medical. QP is only required for that first phase of Phase I. Hours and specific test completion create the move to the second phase of the APP, where APs and QPs are allowed.

Larry

Great! Thanks for the info. My test pilot will fly the first 15 hours, so we should be good to go.
Thanks.
 
So now my DAR claims he is not familiar with AC 90-116, and does not know what to do with it. His advice was to contact the FSDO, but all offices are closed, and they don't return my calls.

Can anyone here give some direction as to how to proceed? Can this simply be entered into my Ops Specs for Phase I?

What does the DAR need to do? Yes...he should already know, but he has never had this come up before.
 
So now my DAR claims he is not familiar with AC 90-116, and does not know what to do with it. His advice was to contact the FSDO, but all offices are closed, and they don't return my calls.

Can anyone here give some direction as to how to proceed? Can this simply be entered into my Ops Specs for Phase I?

What does the DAR need to do? Yes...he should already know, but he has never had this come up before.

I think the obvious answer is to get another DAR - if yours isn’t familiar with the AC that has ben out for about six years, what else isn’t he familiar with, or isn’t going to get right? AS far as I know, the AC90-116 reference is boilerplate in the Ops Lims now, and shows up normally. I can;t imagine how he is generating Operating Limitations without it showing up.

Mel or Vic could help you out.

I am just very curious about what airplane you have built that has a GM crate motor? Not very many out there .... I flew the Supermarine M26 once that had one - nice airplane!
 
Agree with Paul above - your DAR is either hopelessy behind, to the point that you need to look for another one, or he is telling you in not so many words that he doesn't want to work with you on your airplane.

Either way, you've reached the end with this guy.
 
I think the obvious answer is to get another DAR - if yours isn’t familiar with the AC that has ben out for about six years, what else isn’t he familiar with, or isn’t going to get right? AS far as I know, the AC90-116 reference is boilerplate in the Ops Lims now, and shows up normally. I can;t imagine how he is generating Operating Limitations without it showing up.

Mel or Vic could help you out.

I am just very curious about what airplane you have built that has a GM crate motor? Not very many out there .... I flew the Supermarine M26 once that had one - nice airplane!

+1

I just did this with the FSDO last December and they told me that the APP program was there, by default, and I didn't need to request it like I did back in 2015.
 
I contacted someone on this forum. As a last resort...might pull the wings off, and truck my plane from Ohio to Texas for the inspection. Hate to do that!!!

Can some here recommend a DAR in the Cleveland, Ohio area?

My plane is at KHZY, near Jefferson OH, and Ashtabula, OH.

Trucking a plane for 1200 miles poses too many risks. Ask me how I know...
 
I think the obvious answer is to get another DAR - if yours isn’t familiar with the AC that has ben out for about six years, what else isn’t he familiar with, or isn’t going to get right? AS far as I know, the AC90-116 reference is boilerplate in the Ops Lims now, and shows up normally. I can;t imagine how he is generating Operating Limitations without it showing up.
Mel or Vic could help you out.
I am just very curious about what airplane you have built that has a GM crate motor? Not very many out there .... I flew the Supermarine M26 once that had one - nice airplane!

I've talked with Mr. Oleson and willing to help. Unfortunately the aircraft is in Ohio and I'm just not comfortable flying the Airlines at this juncture.

If he can get the airplane to Texas we CAN "git-r-dun". But I know that's a tough job.
 
Sounds like we need some DAR-transport tag-team assistance, a-la Pilots For Paws!

I'm in for half a leg, who else would assist?
 
As soon as I can get out there...

I will pull the info from the plane for the local DAR I used, Matt Tomashek (I may not have the spelling correct). Knowledgeable, prompt, thorough, if Gary Baker is out there, he may be able to provide contact info more readily. Gary (RV-6 builder ) accompanied Matt on his visit. If I remember correctly, Matt is in the Medina area.
 
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