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What Interim Plane Should I Buy?

golfmogul

Active Member
Just beginning the order process to get in line to build an RV 10. Will be a long time before its in the air, so I'm seeking recommendations for what to buy & fly in the meantime. Here's my typical mission: Fly with my 2 kids, my dog, 100lbs of luggage, and tanks filled to tabs (50 gallons?) from U42 in Utah (high DA over mountains) to places like Phoenix or Oceanside CA (its fine if we have to stop once for fuel to PHX or OCN). So, I need at least 900 lbs of useful load (this would also include the weight of the gas), but 1000lbs or 1050lbs is ideal. I strongly prefer having AC but could survive without it. I will train IFR in this interim plane, so it needs to work well for learning IFR. Budget: ideally around $150k or less, but I would consider up to $250k for something epic. Must have 4 seats (5 is ok too ... lol this is starting to sound like a G3 Cirrus 22T except those are more than $250k and they have slightly less useful load when it has AC which I want). Many of my flights will be just me or me and 1 other person, so it would be nice to have good speed and performance (GPH) by not hauling a station wagon w/6 seats (4 of which would often be empty) like a Cherokee 6 300 (those are hundreds more useful load than I need). I don't like (and won't consider) high wing aircraft, so that limits it a bit. Needs to be a certified plane (no experimental for this first round). Other things I may have missed that would help you recommend, just ask. I'm a new pilot, and with all I've read about fixed vs retractable landing gear, I strongly prefer fixed. Thx!
 
Mooney!

How about a vintage Mooney? (that's what I did!)

My 1969 M20C will do 135KTAS on just under 8GPH and 140KTAS on around 9GPH at 8000'. With 52 gal capacity, you can easily do Phoenix or Oceanside in one hop (but your kids may not!).

Useful load varies a bit depending on installed equipment, but it's right at 1000lbs. We've been to Oshkosh a few times with 2 adults, an almost-adult teenager, and about 200 lbs of camping gear, and still managed to be 20 lbs under max gross.

I bet you can find a very decent one for half of your $150k budget.
 
Super Viking

The Bellanca Super Viking is GREAT and fits your description; there are a few very nice examples on trade-a-plane right now, which is not real common. Of course once you fly it you may never want another plane. give me a call if you’d like to chat about it or any of those listed. 701-five6one-631four. Highly undervalued, definitely within your budget.
 
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None. Build the 10 and fly the Friendly Skies when you need to travel.

The RV-10 is the premiere plane in the sky - don’t do anything to delay finishing it.

Carl
 
I am building an RV-10 (expecting 1st flight this month!) I currently fly a Mooney M20J and think it's one of the best values on the market. I have NEVER had a C.G. issue and have 920 lbs useful load capacity. (Not as good as RV-10, but should handle your missions). I have a Lopresti Cowl and fly R.O.P. at 11.5 GPH @ 162 KTAS or L.O.P. at 8.5 GPH @ 150 KTAS. It's a great IFR platform too. I am a Mooney "J" model fan and highly recommend for your interim needs. You can find some nice ones for about $120K.
 
I was reading along and thinking you were describing a 182 until you said no high wing. So, buy a Piper Dakota then. The low wing version of the 182.
Fixed gear, constant speed, big bore 6 cyl engine that is not working hard. Pretty much the same set up as a 10.
 
Get a partner (or two) and buy a Baron or King Air. The airlines are much cheaper, but who wants to do that in a COVID world???
 
...yeah, hard to argue with this...

I can't even begin building the RV 10 for 6-7 months, at which time I can begin doing the empennage with Synergy Air in Eugene, then continue right into the QB kit with their help b/c it should be there by then. After that, its still many months before I can fly that plane, which means my new PPL skills stagnate for 18+ months w/out a plane, OR I rent, OR I buy an interim plane (what I'm going to do) & keep flying, taking some short XC trips on my own & w/my kids, and getting IFR certified while I wait to begin the build & in between build weeks I'll spend in Eugene (away from my home). But I get what you are saying - focus my time on the build as much as possible, which I'll do.
 
I am building an RV-10 (expecting 1st flight this month!) I currently fly a Mooney M20J and think it's one of the best values on the market. I have NEVER had a C.G. issue and have 920 lbs useful load capacity. (Not as good as RV-10, but should handle your missions). I have a Lopresti Cowl and fly R.O.P. at 11.5 GPH @ 162 KTAS or L.O.P. at 8.5 GPH @ 150 KTAS. It's a great IFR platform too. I am a Mooney "J" model fan and highly recommend for your interim needs. You can find some nice ones for about $120K.

I'm loving the sound of this - other's have recommended the M20C - I'll research both - thx for the recommendation!
 
If you want a 10 ultimately, why not buy a flying 10? There are a couple nice ones for sale now right in the $250K range.

If you really want to build one I totally get it, but just a thought. Could always buy one, build one and then sell the bought one when done.
 
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I bought a Mooney 201 last year as my interim airplane, and I think it was a pretty good choice. Definitely does the job, but a 40+ year old airframe and certified limitations makes me want to finish the -10! The 201 gets us there fast, maybe not as fast as the -10 will, but it is giving me great experience in how to plan ahead for speeds I didn't have to worry about before with my old Warrior.
 
If you want a 10 ultimately, why not buy a flying 10? There are a couple nice ones for sale now right in the $250K range.

If you really want to build one I totally get it, but just a thought. Could always buy one, build one and then sell the bought one when done.

Thx - yeah that would be my preference, to buy a used RV 10 & learn IFR in it while I build my RV 10. But for personal reasons, I need my interim plane to NOT be experimental. thx -
 
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You say that you’re a new pilot, but you don't say how new - although you do say your not yet instrument rated....and that can make a big difference, because if you need insurance, the insurance companies are going to decide what they’ll “let” you own. You might consider talking to one of the fine insurance brokerage firms to get some idea of what you can qualify for given your hours, licenses, and experience.

The more complex the airplane, the more experience you’ll need to get coverage, and a VFR-only pilot in a complex airplane does Not (unfortunately) endear one to underwriters.
 
You say that you’re a new pilot, but you don't say how new - although you do say your not yet instrument rated....and that can make a big difference, because if you need insurance, the insurance companies are going to decide what they’ll “let” you own. You might consider talking to one of the fine insurance brokerage firms to get some idea of what you can qualify for given your hours, licenses, and experience.

The more complex the airplane, the more experience you’ll need to get coverage, and a VFR-only pilot in a complex airplane does Not (unfortunately) endear one to underwriters.

Thx - I just started solo'ing as a student pilot. Lots of time on my hands so flying and studying a ton these days & my CFI thinks I'll have my PPL by end of August. B/c of how new I am, I want something with fixed gear, single piston, not complex. But I do want something that is good to learn IFR in b/c I plan to do those lessons & work towards that certification right after getting my PPL. Thx
 
Have said this to others asking the same question - do not buy an airplane to fly while building an RV. I know 3 people that did this and their RV kits are in some lightly touched status in the back of their hangars, after 10+ years.
 
Have said this to others asking the same question - do not buy an airplane to fly while building an RV. I know 3 people that did this and their RV kits are in some lightly touched status in the back of their hangars, after 10+ years.

Thx - others here have given the same advice. I have around 8 months before I can start the build. Can get my IFR and begin learning xc flying in that time, and can use what I buy to fly to and from the builder support ppl/hangar where I'll be working on my plane for likely 1 yr after I do get to start on it. Thx tho -
 
Piper Comanche. Just leave the gear down if you are worried about retract. One of the best, simple performance aircraft out there. Huge CG and no hydraulic power systems. There is a beauty in simplicity. I am a big fan.
 
Mission

Take a close look at your 90% mission requirements. Right now getting your instrument rating and flying affordably while building an RV-10 is your goal.

Why this interim plane must be certified will help people make better recommendations.

To me it sounds like a well equipped Cherokee 180 would fill 90% of your requirements and will be much easier to sell in a year or so when you are done with it.

You’ll be flying by yourself or with your instructor more than 90% of the time...it’s a reality.

Best of luck and keep us posted on what you end up with! Thanks!
 
Wait. If you are like almost all pilots, your goals will change after you get some flying time logged. Insurance could dictate your plane. Four seats, new ppl, no experience will be costly to insure.
 
B/c of how new I am, I want something with fixed gear, single piston, not complex. But I do want something that is good to learn IFR in b/c I plan to do those lessons & work towards that certification right after getting my PPL. Thx

IMHO you might want to reconsider your fixed gear limitation. When I went from a fixed gear Piper Cherokee (as a newly minted pilot) to a retract Mooney I was worried about the complexity and insurance costs. Insurance was almost a non-factor. I was surprised at how little the difference was. In terms of complexity, it's really a non-issue. As slick as the Mooney is, you almost have to deploy the landing gear in order to slow down enough for landing, making it very hard to forget. I also earned my instrument ticket in the Mooney. It's a great IFR platform if you have the right avionics. I have found the added complexity of a retract airplane to be a non-event.
 
I second the recommendation of a Piper Dakota - the low-wing 182. Fixed gear, 900+ pound payload with full fuel, stable instrument platform, and reasonably fast at ~135 kts. Second choice would be a Piper Archer. All the good points of the Dakota, but not as fast (110 kts) and mine has a 635 pound payload with full fuel. Great first airplanes for a lot of reasons. :)
 
It's unfortunate that you're ruling out the high-wing airplanes. A Cessna 182 would pretty much fill your need, I think, and be reliable with parts and mechanics available nationwide.

My own Cessna, which I've had for 34 years, has been reliable, easy to maintain, not all that expensive, and thoroughly capable. Although I'm not instrument rated, others have told me that it would make an excellent airplane to learn that in.

I'd recommend rethinking that particular restriction. Your choices open up considerably when you do. There are some excellent airplanes out there.

Can you do algebra? If so, here's an equation to think about:

Tb + D/Vrv = D/Vo

where:

Tb is the time it takes to build your RV.
D is the distance you want to travel
Vrv is the speed of the RV.
Vo is the speed of a purchased airplane.

What this equation does is figure out the distance you'd have to travel to make up the construction time in the faster airplane that you have to build, compared to the time spent traveling in the slower certified airplane.

Dave
 
I can't even begin building the RV 10 for 6-7 months, at which time I can begin doing the empennage with Synergy Air in Eugene, then continue right into the QB kit with their help b/c it should be there by then. After that, its still many months before I can fly that plane, which means my new PPL skills stagnate for 18+ months w/out a plane, OR I rent, OR I buy an interim plane (what I'm going to do) & keep flying, taking some short XC trips on my own & w/my kids, and getting IFR certified while I wait to begin the build & in between build weeks I'll spend in Eugene (away from my home). But I get what you are saying - focus my time on the build as much as possible, which I'll do.

So let's see...you're just starting on your PPL, so your *actual* experiences flying the whole fam damily plus dogs and luggage and whatnot is simply what you *think* you're going to be doing in the future, right?

And once you're done with that AND an IFR ticket, you're going to start building a -10, at a distant location?

Might I suggest you slow down and focus on one thing at a time? Do you really need to buy a Mooney or whatever *right now*, simply to get your primary ticket? Why not just do what most people do and rent the cheapest plane that meets the capabilities you and your instructor need? Save your money (you'll need it).

After that, get checked out in that nicer Piper or Cessna and go fly for a while...see how many times, or even IF, you end up taking everybody and the kitchen sink on those XCs (i.e., what is your *real* mission). I can tell you that a whole bunch of people have dreams of doing that every weekend, but the family ends up, well, not so interested so they find themselves doing most of their flying alone, or with other RVers, occasionally with the SO on a modest trip.

Once you figure out what kind of RV meets your *real* mission needs, I think you'll find that the further away the project is from you, the longer it will take to build it. Garage/workshop at home is best, hangars suck, and if you have to fly or drive long distances to get to it, well...

Anyway...I'd just advise slowing down on all these grand plans for a bit until you get a little more into this and know more about what you need (vs. what you *want*).

Just my 2 cents...YMMV.
 
Good Advice

From RV7A Flyer
Anyway...I'd just advise slowing down on all these grand plans for a bit until you get a little more into this and know more about what you need (vs. what you *want*).

+1

Mike - the Extra-Slow Builder
 
Another vote....

...for the Dakota. Terrific airplanes.

Your aversion to high wings rules out the even more obvious choice of course (182). Sooooo much to like about a good 182.

Just beginning the order process to get in line to build an RV 10. Will be a long time before its in the air, so I'm seeking recommendations for what to buy & fly in the meantime. Here's my typical mission: Fly with my 2 kids, my dog, 100lbs of luggage, and tanks filled to tabs (50 gallons?) from U42 in Utah (high DA over mountains) to places like Phoenix or Oceanside CA (its fine if we have to stop once for fuel to PHX or OCN). So, I need at least 900 lbs of useful load (this would also include the weight of the gas), but 1000lbs or 1050lbs is ideal. I strongly prefer having AC but could survive without it. I will train IFR in this interim plane, so it needs to work well for learning IFR. Budget: ideally around $150k or less, but I would consider up to $250k for something epic. Must have 4 seats (5 is ok too ... lol this is starting to sound like a G3 Cirrus 22T except those are more than $250k and they have slightly less useful load when it has AC which I want). Many of my flights will be just me or me and 1 other person, so it would be nice to have good speed and performance (GPH) by not hauling a station wagon w/6 seats (4 of which would often be empty) like a Cherokee 6 300 (those are hundreds more useful load than I need). I don't like (and won't consider) high wing aircraft, so that limits it a bit. Needs to be a certified plane (no experimental for this first round). Other things I may have missed that would help you recommend, just ask. I'm a new pilot, and with all I've read about fixed vs retractable landing gear, I strongly prefer fixed. Thx!
 
I'm going to pile on with some others even thought it wasn't exactly the answer you asked for - I would wait a bit until you get so specific in your search requirements, right now you don't know what you don't know.

Like you, when I started building I had grand plans of never flying commercial again. In the 4 years since I have completed my 9A, my wife and I have used it for out-of-state trips maybe 5 times. Several of those trips had to be changed or extended due to weather. If we had to be somewhere (wedding, funeral, etc), we flew commercial. The stress of worrying about weather for a week before, and all weekend, simply isn't worth it. IFR will make things easier for you, but that's no joke in the mountains, and even IFR I have been forced to stop trips and rent a car due to impenetrable lines of storms or 50' ceilings. In the mountains, you have much less wiggle room to avoid weather. You still can't fly through ice or thunderstorms, or mountaintops.

If you have the finances and still want a -10, go for it, but it sounds like, similar to me, most of your flying would be alone or with one other person. I can rent a Cirrus or 182 for trips several times a year and keep my 9A, and still save loads of money over owning a -10, as much as I'd love to.

Long story short, lot's of people buy 4-place airplanes with grand plans of family trips. Most of them sit unloved 99% of the time.

Chris
 
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Take a close look at your 90% mission requirements. Right now getting your instrument rating and flying affordably while building an RV-10 is your goal.

Why this interim plane must be certified will help people make better recommendations.

To me it sounds like a well equipped Cherokee 180 would fill 90% of your requirements and will be much easier to sell in a year or so when you are done with it.

You’ll be flying by yourself or with your instructor more than 90% of the time...it’s a reality.

Best of luck and keep us posted on what you end up with! Thanks!

Thx. Your message, and a few others like it, really got me thinking. Enough that I held off on my deposit on the RV 10 (tbh, I held off b/of the "think of your 90% mission" AND b/c of someone else posting a suggestion to buy a Columbia 400 as my interim plane ... If I decide to stick with a 4 seater, that Columbia 400 might be good enough that I postpone building & later build a 2 seater instead of the -10.) Anyway, I have been planning on buying a high Useful Load 4 seater for both the interim plane and the build b/c I pictured flying often with my kids ... like 6-12 times/yr. But others keep saying that most new dad pilots think like this, and for most, it ends up being just 2-4 times/yr w/their kids ... and if that is more likely, does it make more sense to rent a 4 seater those few times & buy a 2 seater that's good for learning IFR & optimized for my main mission(s) now: flying alone xc, flying alone as I train IFR, flying with my CFI training IFR, flying w/my older son when my younger 2 kids are w/their mother (66% of the time), flying for fun w/a friend or SO, etc. So, thx ... you got me thinking. Now I'm totally up in the air & that's ok, b/c I have a few more weeks before check ride, then can take my kids (one at a time likely) up in my PA 28 - 140 & see how they like it in general & just take all of these decisions slowly ... like several here and on Pilots of America have advised.
 
So let's see...you're just starting on your PPL, so your *actual* experiences flying the whole fam damily plus dogs and luggage and whatnot is simply what you *think* you're going to be doing in the future, right?

And once you're done with that AND an IFR ticket, you're going to start building a -10, at a distant location?

Might I suggest you slow down and focus on one thing at a time? Do you really need to buy a Mooney or whatever *right now*, simply to get your primary ticket? Why not just do what most people do and rent the cheapest plane that meets the capabilities you and your instructor need? Save your money (you'll need it).

After that, get checked out in that nicer Piper or Cessna and go fly for a while...see how many times, or even IF, you end up taking everybody and the kitchen sink on those XCs (i.e., what is your *real* mission). I can tell you that a whole bunch of people have dreams of doing that every weekend, but the family ends up, well, not so interested so they find themselves doing most of their flying alone, or with other RVers, occasionally with the SO on a modest trip.

Once you figure out what kind of RV meets your *real* mission needs, I think you'll find that the further away the project is from you, the longer it will take to build it. Garage/workshop at home is best, hangars suck, and if you have to fly or drive long distances to get to it, well...

Anyway...I'd just advise slowing down on all these grand plans for a bit until you get a little more into this and know more about what you need (vs. what you *want*).

Just my 2 cents...YMMV.

I think this is fantastic advice & am taking it. Putting all decisions on hold, will continue researching planes (b/c that's super fun), but many of you here (including this comment) is making me think & (as I posted in a reply to another comment), I'm now planning on finishing my PPL (in a few weeks hopefully), taking my kids (one at a time) up for fun flights, etc ... maybe I'll only need high useful load for family trips a few times a year & it will be better to rent that type of plane & buy for my most common missions: flying alone to train, with my CFI to train IFR, xc alone, xc w/my older son, for fun and xc w/SO (assuming I someday have one again lol). Anyway, I agree w/your advice & am going to take it ... even my original question here was just to get ideas to research, not to go out and buy an interim plane now ... I just enjoy doing the research. But yeah, one step at a time. thx
 
I'm going to pile on with some others even thought it wasn't exactly the answer you asked for - I would wait a bit until you get so specific in your search requirements, right now you don't know what you don't know.

Like you, when I started building I had grand plans of never flying commercial again. In the 4 years since I have completed my 9A, my wife and I have used it for out-of-state trips maybe 5 times. Several of those trips had to be changed or extended due to weather. If we had to be somewhere (wedding, funeral, etc), we flew commercial. The stress of worrying about weather for a week before, and all weekend, simply isn't worth it. IFR will make things easier for you, but that's no joke in the mountains, and even IFR I have been forced to stop trips and rent a car due to impenetrable lines of storms or 50' ceilings. In the mountains, you have much less wiggle room to avoid weather. You still can't fly through ice or thunderstorms, or mountaintops.

If you have the finances and still want a -10, go for it, but it sounds like, similar to me, most of your flying would be alone or with one other person. I can rent a Cirrus or 182 for trips several times a year and keep my 9A, and still save loads of money over owning a -10, as much as I'd love to.

Long story short, lot's of people buy 4-place airplanes with grand plans of family trips. Most of them sit unloved 99% of the time.

Chris

THX! for taking the time to write about your experience - plz see my replies to others ...I'm taking this advice & slowing down & will consider a 2 seater possibly (along w/renting a 4 seater for the few times/yr my younger kids and I go somewhere xc). thx
 
Interesting how many folks recommended a vintage Mooney. I’m in kind of the opposite situation in that I have a really nice RV4 which has me totally spoiled on speed but no family plane. I can’t afford / justify the cost of a -10 and just came across the short bodied Mooneys as an option for the 2nd plane. If any of you RV / Mooney drivers are thinking about selling your C or E type Mooneys please let me know. Thx!

And to The original post, it is my opinion that single engine pistons have nothing to do with practicality and are 95% geared towards fun and freedom. I would say get whatever four seater you can get easily that will have an easy time being resold if things change and go have some fun. You might find that you only really need two seats in which case you can probably get whatever 2-seat aerobatic RV you want and have enough left over for the family plane.
 
I'm loving what I'm reading about the RV7 now lol. I'm really loving the thought of renting a 4 seater a couple/few times a year for family trips (and occasionally using commercial), and buying a 2 seater interim plane to learn IFR starting in a few weeks (and would be good to begin doing solo and duo xc trips in) ... and then maybe getting on order a QB kit for a 7 or 7A & either planning to build it mostly myself in my 2 car garage or doing it with Synergy as I was planning to do for the 10 ... many options ... fun to think about and research (not sure if there is an 8 month wait for the QB kits for the 7 like Van's told me there is right now for the 10). What's weird is how hard a time I'm having starting finding planes to learn about that would be under $150k & just 2 seats with good avionics for learning IFR ... all the searches I do (on google, youtube, forums like this & pilots of america, etc) point to the RV 7 lol ... but if things keep going down this road, I could find myself with my ppl in a few weeks, having sold (w/my partner) our PA 28 - 140, plane-less, ready to start IFR training and start flying XC for fun alone or with my 19 yr old son, etc ... and a long way from having a 7 built etc. Maybe I should just buy a used RV 7 now but of the few I can see on offer on the major websites, most don't look well kept. Also, I keep thinking I should first begin flying w/my kids in a certified plane b/c I'm divorced with a crazy ex wife who I'm expecting will file a lawsuit to try to get a judge to prevent me from flying with my kids and I assume I'll have a better case to make if I'm not flying an "experimental" aircraft which has such a different connotation in non-aviator's minds (my ex, our judge, etc) than it does for us. lots of thoughts. Lots of great advice here. Lots more fun research for me to do as I keep flying, learning, preparing for my xc flight and check ride, and as I try to patiently wait to get my PPL & an interim plane that I can begin using to fly to real places etc. Exciting stuff. Thx all

EDIT - when I first flew a demo flight which got me started on this PPL journey ... I was pretty set on getting into car racing as a hobby, and what changed my mind during/after that demo flight was the idea of earning my PPL, then progressing to eventually train & learn some acrobatic flying ... that was my motivation to get into this in the first place. I lost track of that & assumed I'd want to fly my kids all over but you guys have helped me realize that 90-95% of my flying will not be with them, so why not own & usually fly the plane that best suits my main missions! I get way more excited thinking about owning & maybe building an RV 7 and renting a Cirrus or something occasionally for a family trip than I do thinking about building/owning an RV 10. Esp due to the ages of my youngest 2 kids, who are nearly teenagers & are getting into the phase where they want to be w/their friends more and more (and less and less doing stuff & going places w/Dad). Thx all.

Edit # 2 - I am just beginning to dig into why so many ppl on these forums like the 7 over the 7A (is most of it about soft-field TO's/landings?) b/c for me, I don't love the way tail dragers look, and it seems like it would be super hard to see what's straight ahead of you while taxiing & landing & taking off, and I really don't see myself flying to or from places with soft fields, and all of my training so far (and I assume, for the next plane I purchase & learn IFR in) is in a nose wheel plane not a tail dragger ... so, are there other things I should be aware of as to the pros of a 7, or am I the guy they make the 7A for and its an easy decision there?
 
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Local flying club?

Do like I did and buy a share in an Extra 300 for scrambling your brains and join a club with cross country machines for the family. I joined a club with a A36 bonanza, 182 and -7A. I figure I can fly the bonanza for 40-50 hours before I reach the cost of simply parking a -10 in my hangar. When you factor the opportunity cost of sinking $200k into a plane the numbers favor renting or clubs. You could bypass all of this nonsense and just get the ultimate flying machine...the -3B, plus airline tickets for your family. Nothing comes close To the -3. :D
 
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I have a different perspective than many of you.

I used to own an A36 bonanza until I went through a divorce. It was a wonderful plane. I have three kids, and so five seats were essential. I had many great adventures with my kids, including flying across the country and back, seeing nine sets of relatives and nine national parks one summer. We took it to visit family in Colorado for skiing, and to see friends in the Bay Area. I also filled it with friends many times.

Now I've built an RV-7A. It's a wonderful plane. My oldest son celebrated completion with me by flying across all 48 states this summer and seeing a bunch of family from 6 feet distance. But it's not the same as being able to fly with all the kids together. As a single dad, it's harder to justify taking off with one of my kids and leaving the other two at home. This obviously varies with your family circumstances. If money were not a factor, I'd get another A36. If time were not a factor, I would build an RV-10.

The OP's budget is sufficient for a nice Bonanza. They are unbeatable family airplanes, fast, comfortable, handle great, and are exceptionally well built. With the A36, I could carry my three kids and plenty of luggage, or camping gear and food for a week. A danger of owning an A36 is it directly challenges or exceeds the RV-10 in many dimensions (other than fuel economy) and might distract one's attention to flying instead of finishing the build.

Regarding rentals for a family trip, I much prefer flying my family in my own airplane. I tried renting a Cirrus for a while during my build. It was expensive, though not as expensive as owning. But it kept having squawks, with alternator lights and CO sensors turning on, and other issues coming up. I checked out in it IFR, but never felt the kind of confidence flying IFR in it as I did with the Bonanza where I was flying the same plane 3-5 times a month. I wouldn't be eager to fly an occasional rental in IMC, even more so with my kids on board, and taking the family on a long trip VFR only is rolling the dice about getting stuck somewhere for a while. Overall, I flew a lot less when I was renting.
 
I have a different perspective than many of you.

I used to own an A36 bonanza until I went through a divorce. It was a wonderful plane. I have three kids, and so five seats were essential. I had many great adventures with my kids, including flying across the country and back, seeing nine sets of relatives and nine national parks one summer. We took it to visit family in Colorado for skiing, and to see friends in the Bay Area. I also filled it with friends many times.

Now I've built an RV-7A. It's a wonderful plane. My oldest son celebrated completion with me by flying across all 48 states this summer and seeing a bunch of family from 6 feet distance. But it's not the same as being able to fly with all the kids together. As a single dad, it's harder to justify taking off with one of my kids and leaving the other two at home. This obviously varies with your family circumstances. If money were not a factor, I'd get another A36. If time were not a factor, I would build an RV-10.

The OP's budget is sufficient for a nice Bonanza. They are unbeatable family airplanes, fast, comfortable, handle great, and are exceptionally well built. With the A36, I could carry my three kids and plenty of luggage, or camping gear and food for a week. A danger of owning an A36 is it directly challenges or exceeds the RV-10 in many dimensions (other than fuel economy) and might distract one's attention to flying instead of finishing the build.

Regarding rentals for a family trip, I much prefer flying my family in my own airplane. I tried renting a Cirrus for a while during my build. It was expensive, though not as expensive as owning. But it kept having squawks, with alternator lights and CO sensors turning on, and other issues coming up. I checked out in it IFR, but never felt the kind of confidence flying IFR in it as I did with the Bonanza where I was flying the same plane 3-5 times a month. I wouldn't be eager to fly an occasional rental in IMC, even more so with my kids on board, and taking the family on a long trip VFR only is rolling the dice about getting stuck somewhere for a while. Overall, I flew a lot less when I was renting.

THIS! this is why I was originally leaning towards buying a good useful load 4 seater to learn IFR & begin XC trips w/my kids in .... and then build the RV 10 ... lots to consider - this comment really captures my vision for why and how I wanted to fly with my kids. Hard to say if we'll travel tons like we used to now that they're spending more and more time w/friends (and at their moms vs at my house). Thx for more food for thought -Your family trips sound epic and I agree, if I'm taking my kids w/me, I'd want it to be in the plane I'm most comfortable in & have the most time & currency in etc.
 
I have a different perspective than many of you.


Regarding rentals for a family trip, I much prefer flying my family in my own airplane. I tried renting a Cirrus for a while during my build. It was expensive, though not as expensive as owning. But it kept having squawks, with alternator lights and CO sensors turning on, and other issues coming up. I checked out in it IFR, but never felt the kind of confidence flying IFR in it as I did with the Bonanza where I was flying the same plane 3-5 times a month. I wouldn't be eager to fly an occasional rental in IMC, even more so with my kids on board, and taking the family on a long trip VFR only is rolling the dice about getting stuck somewhere for a while. Overall, I flew a lot less when I was renting.

This is what I was going to say was well. While financially it makes a lot more sense to own for 90% and rent the other 10%, this assumes that:

1. That 10% plane is available locally to rent.
2. They'll let you take it on the trips and for amount of time you need it.
3. It's equipped to fly the missions you want to fly.
4. You can stay current in it.
5. You'd put your family in it.
6. The cost of renting doesn't buzzkill the whole experience.

You need to hit all of those to make it work. In my case there was a local Mooney that was cheap and quick, but always broken. The Arrow was running commercial students constantly and no way I could take it for a week. The Cirrus' were more expensive than the airlines (yeah, I know nothing beats the airlines, especially when you factor in ownership costs, but $275/hour rental rates really smack you in the face with it). And none of them I flew enough to stay current, much less IFR current.

90 is more than 10, but not all 10's are created equal. You may be better off with a 70% plane that covers the most important 10's, instead of the just the most. Either way, buy your first plane(s), don't build it. Figure out what you want, then build your dream. The best part about buying planes is that if you don't like it you can just sell it. Building is a long haul commitment.

DEM
 
This is what I was going to say was well. While financially it makes a lot more sense to own for 90% and rent the other 10%, this assumes that:

1. That 10% plane is available locally to rent.
2. They'll let you take it on the trips and for amount of time you need it.
3. It's equipped to fly the missions you want to fly.
4. You can stay current in it.
5. You'd put your family in it.
6. The cost of renting doesn't buzzkill the whole experience.

You need to hit all of those to make it work. In my case there was a local Mooney that was cheap and quick, but always broken. The Arrow was running commercial students constantly and no way I could take it for a week. The Cirrus' were more expensive than the airlines (yeah, I know nothing beats the airlines, especially when you factor in ownership costs, but $275/hour rental rates really smack you in the face with it). And none of them I flew enough to stay current, much less IFR current.

90 is more than 10, but not all 10's are created equal. You may be better off with a 70% plane that covers the most important 10's, instead of the just the most. Either way, buy your first plane(s), don't build it. Figure out what you want, then build your dream. The best part about buying planes is that if you don't like it you can just sell it. Building is a long haul commitment.

DEM

Thx & yes .... your philosophy here is how I've been thinking/feeling these past 24 hours, esp after talking to the kids and making a list of all the places we've visited and places we want to go these next few years. I def want to learn IFR and fly most in the same plane I'll be taking the kids in. So, for the last 24 hours, I've been researching Mooneys - but they don't really get me excited (sooooo old looking and no glass panel, etc ... but so affordable) ... and researching the Columbia/Cessna 400 2006-07 w/the G1000 (this gets me very excited ... beautiful fast strong plane & I like that its fixed gear ... but 2x or 3x more than Mooneys so hard to justify the spend). I'm pretty sure I'll buy a 4 seater to learn IFR & take my kids places ... see how it goes for a few years ... then figure out what I want to build (maybe a 7A ;))
 
RV-10

Just buy a flying -10 and build later.

From reading this whole thread it is abundantly clear that’s what the OP needs.
 
Just buy a flying -10 and build later.

From reading this whole thread it is abundantly clear that’s what the OP needs.

I agree with FlyingTiger, not sure why the OP say's he can't buy a 10 now and has to get a certified.
 
Mission undefined ...

... defer decisions that are expensive to reverse until more is known/quantified.

1). You say you want to travel by GA but have no experience doing it.
2). You say you want to fly with your teenage kids, but have never done it. Will they really want to fly with you ? Will you wife permit it? Will it be worth the cost in other areas ?
3). You want to get an IFR rating (good) but haven’t started yet.
4). You want to build an RV-10 but have no EAB experience. (And don’t want an experimental aircraft ???)

My advice:
A). Keep the Cherokee 140 and complete your PPL and IFR rating in that.
B). With PPL in hand, start flying with your kids. See if they like it. Try some short trips.
C). If one is available, join a flying club to gain access to other makes/models. Learn about ownership/insurance/maintenance of more complex types vicariously (and cheaply).
D). Rent other types and models.
E). Join your local EAA chapter. Visit builds. Learn about popular EAB models and their construction.
F). Delay riding in an RV, you will want one immediately 😀
G). Keep window shopping. It’s much of the fun and none of the cost of owning.
H). With experience in hand, refine your personal aviation mission.

My 2 cents,
Peter
 
I agree with FlyingTiger, not sure why the OP say's he can't buy a 10 now and has to get a certified.

Guys.... The OP has answered this question, to the effect that his relationship with his ex is not good and he fears she will make a fuss over putting their kids into an EAB.
OP: I suggest you follow some of the advice here. Slow down a bit, take a breath. Finish your private license, consider an instrument rating (it will help with insurance cost if you end up with a 10). Rent some planes, see how the kids like it once the novelty wears off. Think about your next few years and what you personally want to do. You should build an EAB only because you like building, no other reason. The process is too long if you consider it unpleasant work. Personally I greatly enjoyed the nearly 4 year build time, but not everyone does.
 
... defer decisions that are expensive to reverse until more is known/quantified.

1). You say you want to travel by GA but have no experience doing it.
2). You say you want to fly with your teenage kids, but have never done it. Will they really want to fly with you ? Will you wife permit it? Will it be worth the cost in other areas ?
3). You want to get an IFR rating (good) but haven’t started yet.
4). You want to build an RV-10 but have no EAB experience. (And don’t want an experimental aircraft ???)

My advice:
A). Keep the Cherokee 140 and complete your PPL and IFR rating in that.
B). With PPL in hand, start flying with your kids. See if they like it. Try some short trips.
C). If one is available, join a flying club to gain access to other makes/models. Learn about ownership/insurance/maintenance of more complex types vicariously (and cheaply).
D). Rent other types and models.
E). Join your local EAA chapter. Visit builds. Learn about popular EAB models and their construction.
F). Delay riding in an RV, you will want one immediately 😀
G). Keep window shopping. It’s much of the fun and none of the cost of owning.
H). With experience in hand, refine your personal aviation mission.

My 2 cents,
Peter

Thx for this good advice - and to all of the good advice others have given. I fly multiple times/week training for my PPL, and plan to continue doing so for IFR training/rating, so I prefer not to rent. My deal with my partner is we'll sell the PA 140 as soon as I get my PPL - and getting out of that partnership couldn't happen soon enough. I do plan on waiting to build esp now that I'm finding planes I can be excited about owning, flying, learning IFR in AND slowly growing into XC trips w/my kids in .... which means I very well could get by w/o building for a while, get past the initial 1-2 years of potential ex-wife lawsuits (if she tries to prevent the kids from flying with me ... will be better doing it in a certified plane at first) ... then perhaps upgrade from the DA 40 I want now to a used RV-10 if ex wife isn't causing issues ... and could see myself a few years from now beginning build of an RV-7A that would complete about the time my kids launch for college etc. Much can change between now and then - but the DA 40 seems like a great fit for now so that's what I'm leaning towards. Thx again all for the advice. (I did get in touch with my local EAA chapter & will attend their monthly mtg + open hangar night in about a week)
 
Just a thought here.

Buying a used certified plane and drain your wallet just to keep it flying. You can't work on it yourself like you can an experimental.

That gets old really quick.

Bob
 
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