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Conundrum: Too much technology

RONSIM

Well Known Member
Over the past few years, I have updated my purchased -6A from this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-GFBs4Bw/0/f6eaf073/L/i-GFBs4Bw-L.jpg

to this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gbKXM5R/0/97098dfc/L/i-gbKXM5R-L.jpg

and it has become a wonderful, fun, fully capable airplane. There is not too much this airplane cannot do ------ unfortunately, the technology has forced my partner (a really wonderful guy who loved his T-28, his T-6, and, our -10 and the -8A!) to not fly the airplane unless I am with him! ("too many buttons").

So, I have three (?) choices -- sell the airplane and get something more "steam gagy", trade the plane for a basic 8/8A that someone wants to move to a side-by-side, or---modify my panel by removing the (wonderful) screen and put in some more basic stuff -- and, yes, I know -- The AFS 5600T will display steam gages, but that requires some button pushing (two), and I also know that if I could get him to train in the current plane for a few hours, his fear of the technology would be tempered.

But, as much as I love the airplane, the way it is --- I will do something to help my partner get back to flying. So, right now I am looking at removing the screen and using that space to put in some semblance of steam gages surrounding maybe a G5, MiniX, or a even a D3. No buttons would have to be pushed and I would still have a capable airplane for VFR/IFR.

Anyway, something for me to think about other than virus stuff!

Stay safe, out there!

Ron
 
Ron,

You have a great looking panel. It would be a shame to go backwards. If you feel comfortable with the instruments that have been installed maybe you could just spend some time flying with your partner as a training exercise. Of course just because you have a backup instrument doesn't mean you have to use it. Again it would be a shame not to, but considering that you want to go back more in the direction of your starting point that is an option. Same goes for the navigators you have two now, but previously a simpler GPS.

Anyway I think if you could spend some time on a limited set of instruments it might be helpful enough to jump start your partner.
 
Are you certain that he actually wants to fly it solo? could "too many buttons" actually mean I just prefer to fly with you?

I'm not familiar with the AFS system but if it really is as simple to get to a 6-pack screen as pushing two buttons, and he agreed to the upgrades in his co-owned plane. I think there's likely more to the story than just being worried about buttons; a quick search online shows an awful lot of buttons in a t-6 or t-28...

If I'm reading between the lines correctly I think he's just looking to spend more time with you; which makes sense as your post shows a great level of respect for your partner. Plus, like you said the more time he gets behind the screen the more comfortable he'll be with it. My 2c is take him up as often as you are able.
 
Yup, and I'm sympathetic to your partner. Having become an old dog when I wasn't paying attention, I regard the glass cockpit in my -9A as requiring currency like a taildragger.

(Flame proof suit on). One reason I chose Garmin over the alternatives was that the Garmin round dials worked better -- no HSI overlaid on an attitude indicator, for example, or a small size attitude indicator atop a synthetic vision background but with horizon lines that did not coincide with the synthetic vision horizon. And I did not purchase my system until round dials were available, as tapes are harder to read quickly unless you read the actual digital readout, whereas you can detect needle motion without looking directly at it. (The new Boeing tapes overcome some problems I'd noticed). And I'd done engineering development in jet transport simulators, so I'd had some experience with tapes. (/Flame proof suit off).

I've also found that flying with and without the autopilot are two distinct styles of flying. With, I spend energy entering numbers into the system, loading and arming approaches and monitoring what the thing is doing now. It's great once everything is entered in, but... Without, I keep everything in my head and spend energy hand flying the plane, just like when I only had steam gauges. I try to keep current at both.

What solution there might be is to show your friend how to fly the plane VFR only and have him forego all the IFR-isms. To oversimplify, if the avionics are considered to have a set of display functions and a set of control functions, (at least on my system) the display functions are easy to learn and useful, even if there are a number of them. The control functions have fewer buttons, are more complex, more steps, stuff to monitor, more gotchas, and that's where I have to work harder. Setting up the plane for simple VFR can be a dedicated checklist, and if it's only a few items, your friend should be able to master that. Don't forget to have a restore to IFR checklist as well. (On my system, there are some things that are not restored at power on, but I've not yet put them on the checklist, but they might make it onto the next one, Rev 26).

Hope this helps.

Constructive comments welcome, flamers not.
 
I think a lot of the problems you run in to in little airplanes is different boxes by different manufactures and each has their own particular architecture for the user interface. It is becoming a bit less so as time rolls on but it is still true.

In a big airplane everything is designed from the outset to work with each other so everything is nicely integrated and works homogeneously. That just isn't so with little airplanes unless you get everything from a single manufacture and even then it isn't a guarantee. Also, do to the limited space available it makes the man machine interface much more difficult. You need look no further than the Garmin 430 for a classic example. It is a fabulous box and does incredible things if you know how to work it. I you had never seen one before in your life, had no instructions on how to use it and had never dealt with anything else even remotely like it I wager you would be hard pressed to get even the most basic functions out of it because the user interface is so convoluted with twisting and pushing as to be almost detrimental to safe operation while airborne. If you are twirling and poking knobs searching for the function you want you are not flying the airplane or looking out the window for traffic. There is a reason why even the airlines almost universally have some sort of policy that one guy flies the airplane and the other guy pokes at the box.

Next thoughts, and this will seem somewhat like heresy to some, but what do we need all this fancy technology for anyway? Now full disclosure here, I fly glass cockpits in everything at work and I will most likely have some sort of TAA cockpit when I can finally get around to working on my airplane again but think about what you use the airplane for. Do you really need a WAAS GPS navigator with a huge multi function map display to hop out for the $100 hamburger? I do BFRs and I am seeing a definite trend of people who get sucked in to spending way too much time looking at all the cool stuff in the cockpit and not enough time looking out the window. Before we had full instrumentation for the engines we used to lean until it coughed and then turn it in some. Now I see people obsessing over a 10 degree temp difference between cylinders. It used to be the RPM was set right when the needle pointed more or less at the correct line. It may or may not have been exactly what you wanted but that was the best info you had and it worked. Now I see people spend inordinate amounts of time getting the RPM set as close to exactly on target. More info is not always better. It needs to be managed properly.

To the OPs question. I don't know if I would go backwards if you are using the full functionality of the airplane. Can you make him a cheat sheet on the most basic functions? We have all seen people who have taken a TV remote and placed a template over it covering everything except the power, channel and volume buttons. Could you do essentially the same thing except with some training and a cheat sheet. I bet if you could get him to be able to use the radio, xpndr, set the altimeter and enter a direct destination into the GPS that is all he would ever need.
 
Get a different airplane partner. Sounds harsh but he doesn?t fly the way you do and you?d both be happy if he went elsewhere and you got someone who can appreciate the plane.
 
Ok, I'll ask...........

How were you able to change to glass if your partner doesn't like glass?
 
Ron,

What a great looking panel!

I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I guess. My RV-6 started plain jane (steam) and morphed into 'fancy glass' over the course of 15 years. It sure made situational awareness easier to obtain and maintain while getting an IFR ticket.

Fast forward to today - I'm spending more and more time as a part time sim helper in this:

Screen%20Shot%202020-05-20%20at%206.12.28%20PM-L.png


The RV 'fancy glass' ABSOLUTELY prepared me for this slowly over the course of a few months.

As an option, you can declutter the screens in your RV to present you with less info.

My .02? A couple of weeks just tooling around at low speed in the local area can do wonders for your confidence level in regards to becoming familair with new tech. Maybe this would work for your plane partner.

My first few sim sessions I thought my head would melt and I was a couple of states behind the a/c. Now I kinda dig it, and enjoy the improved SA. Nothing but time in the seat and my outlook changed.

v/r,dr

PS: My iPad running Garmin Pilot displays 'backup steam gauges'. Another option.....


Attitude-Indicator2.jpg
 
I have a flip phone myself...

There are 5 or 6 controls on that flight deck that are REQUIRED for flight.

Maybe your partner is intimidate by the 50 plus switches and cb's, 6 screens and their associated menus, 2 HSI's and probably some other stuff I can't see.

I fly a Boeing time machine at work, and enjoy looking out the window on my days off.
To each his own.
 
I think a lot of the problems you run in to in little airplanes is different boxes by different manufactures and each has their own particular architecture for the user interface.

One reason I really like GRT----they do their best to play with other folks little magic boxes.
 
When I was a kid, I flew in a 7AC Champ with a retired Delta Captain. He let me sit up front. After we were about 200' off the ground I noticed none (neither) of the gauges worked. Since we didn't have headsets, I turned around, looked at him and pointed to the panel. He just smiled.

I'm sure just the installation of one of those panels cost more than that entire Champ did in 1947.

I'de rather fly and use my senses rather than rely on someone else's.

Then again, I don't even watch TV.
 
Any chance this would work???

I'm not sure you have received answers that really address your 3 options, and this one doesn't directly address those options either - just offering another thought process.
I plan to do exactly this when I finally get my hands on an RV, and I think your partner will relate given his experience:
Pitch + power = performance

Spend time with all the screens turned down (unreadable as if failed).
Ideally you will act as safety pilot using your iPad with the flight information available to you.

Takeoff: Set T/O power, feel the stick pressure as speed builds, learn what is needed and how she flies off. (hopefully engine instruments are easily monitored, but if integrated with the EFIS only, then sound of the engine, acceleration rate etc)
Climb: Set climb power - set throttle to approx MAP desired (maybe a marking on the quadrant), learn approximate physical prop adjustment (number of vernier turns), and rough mixture adjustment for typical conditions.
Set climb pitch attitude referenced to horizon position relative to fixed part of the glare shield or other convenient reference point.
Cruise: Essentially the same as for climb.
Maneuvering: Spend time learning the pitch attitude & power for turns, slow flight, stall recoveries etc with outside references only, and known throttle positions.
Descent: Again rough power setting (another mark on the throttle quadrant) and rough adjustment of mixture during descent etc. set pitch attitude referenced to another fixed point on the airframe.
Pattern & landing: It can be done using the same principles as above, and hopefully the slow flight and stall practice has given the necessary exposure to prevent things getting too far out of profile. (sloppy controls, air noise etc).

Ok, I realize the above is probably teaching how to suck eggs, but my intent is just to emphasize that if your partner could get comfortable enough flying without ANY instruments (steam or EFIS), then he could "worry" less with the technology and just enjoy flying like he did in the T-6.

Basic Nav will not be foreign to him and watching the ground with a paper chart still works if that's all he wants to do. You could slowly introduce little bits of tech as time goes, like the "Direct to" function etc.

Add to this getting comfortable with the basic display at power up and he has all he needs and confidence that he doesn't need any of it when the screens get out of wack.

Think about the kid looking at the cockpit of a jetliner for the first time ..."all those buttons", but we know that you only have to look at one button/system/gauge at a time. It's knowing which one to give your attention to that takes the training.

It's really just embracing the fact that the tech stuff is there as "nice to have if you want it" but not necessary for flight.

Hope this helps. As has already been mentioned, the techniques he used in the T-6 are still valid - it's just wings moving through air.
 
If you swapped the Dynon backup EFIS for steam gauge backups and the GNS430 for a plain old nav/com, you would have an airplane that could be flown with or without "button pushing".
 
How about refit the right side of the panel with the 6pack you described. Leaves the left side the same for you and the right side for him. Additionally gives him left throttle, right stick - similar to his old planes. Maybe he might feel more comfortable to fly solo this way.
 
Healthy mix

I dont happen to have a picture handy, but when i put my panel together i placed an Airspeed indicator and artificial horizon as well as an altimeter in the panel along with a suite of classic Dynon 10 inch and related com gear.

You could look at what instrument he is having probs with, I know i like to look at a standard airspeed gauge instead of the ribbon.

I have to agree with other posters, perhaps he is more concerned about the plane itself and flight characteristics rather than the instruments.

I liked your panel
 
Terrific response -- thanks everyone!

The main problem my partner is having is the screen. When it comes on line it lights up with a great display that can be tailored to about any configuration -- unless you are intimately familiar with it (and I have flown in front of all brands, Garmin, GRT, Dynon -- they all present the same issues to the unfamiliar) it can be overwhelming. I have sat for hours, with portable power hooked up, exploring and learning the screen ---and, I really like it and use it every day that I fly. But, it does take commitment.

I think what I am looking at, right now, is to build a plug-in panel that will contain an AS, ALT., VS and a simple EFIS (G5, GRT mini, D10A, or even a D3) that would not require any/minimal button pushing and would be small enough to not overwhelm. I have the autopilot switchable to eliminate necessity for the screen control. I have the AFS5600T mounted so that it will remove/replace easily. The new panel would have a manifold such that pitot/static lines would only require a quick connection. I could switch panels quickly.

Anyway, still thinking about it and kind of enjoying another potential project for the airplane!

Enjoy your weekend!

Ron
 
Too Much Technology

The potentiality exists perhaps N/A to all RV owners, as the article in "Kitplanes" 2017 did not differentiate A.C. models & types. Subscribers were asked to complete survey = indicating if they preferred steam or glass. The results were pub. the following mo. = High % under 40-44 group preferred glass. 45 & up preferred steam, w/ steam % preferences increasing w/ ea. upward 5 yr.age group. As others chime in, assume some recall this, (Paul Dye, Edit.,) ...mentioned in only perhaps the partner is in an upper age group.
 
I understand the age thing, but

my partner is a youngster in his early 60s, I am 80 and really like the glass. As an instructor, I was introduced to the G1000 when I was about 69/70 -- I obtained the CDs and textbooks and learned the G1000 so I could work with students, and, my conclusion, people who train on round gauges can adapt to glass quicker than "glass students" can figure out the round gauges.

But, these days, in the experimental world, moving from one airplane to another is a challenge. The six-pack was standard across all airplanes, now, hardly two panels are alike.

Still having fun with this!

Ron
 
Another possible option would be the Dynon Skyview SE set up in Six Pack display. It was designed to be the easiest of the full screen displays.

No button pushes required and there are no sub-menus with your external transponder.
 
Simplification by addition?

Ron,
Perhaps you should consider adding another plane/partner to your partnership. I am sure there are RV owners with simple panels who would be interested in having access to your technically advanced RV in exchange for providing current partner (and you) the opportunity of flying the ?simpler? addition to your fleet.

Failing that, I like the idea of an iPad overlay (mounted in a removable way in front of the AFS) displaying (emulating) an old school six pack using ForeFlight (or similar). No doubt you have all the data you need to drive such a display behind that fine panel. Your partner could simply ?fly the iPad.?

Peter
 
It doesn't take a lot of glass/expense to experience the fun of safe flying especially in an RV. Some love the gadgets some love the 'kiss' method, I'm the latter:)
 
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Human Factors Engineering

My thoughts on panel design... There's a whole major at USAFA called "human factors engineering" which is the study of cockpit design (and user interfaces in general) and making things as human friendly as possible. From what I remember from the HFE class I took, the less stuff is typically better/safer/more effective.

The brain only has so much bandwidth. And, in task saturated situations (combat, emergencies, ATC gives you a helmet fire, etc) you want as much of your brain available to the task vs time/thought going towards operating a complex user interface.

I also get that wiring and geeking out over the latest toy is fun and we can do whatever we want in our airplanes.

Give me a simple panel, though. Here's mine. Has everything I need and more. I gave this a ton of thought and tried to make all the eye/hand movements as natural as possible for all phases of flight. It's one area of the build where I'm actually super proud of the way it turned out.

PNyCRJem.jpg
 
With a Garmin G3X touch, you can turn off the synthetic vision and switch the display over to a traditional six pack view. Does the Advanced have the same options. Most companies offer close to the same features. Then he has a traditional panel to fly with. It takes nothing to switch back and forth to make both of you happy flyers.
 
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I have heard of this before. I was training pilots on the B757/B767/B747-400 in the early 90's and there were still pilots transitioning from steam gauges to glass. Some embraced it, some were intimidated. One word comes to mind.... Training.

Eyesight thing or other? Just saying big old 6-Pack is easy to see as are CDI in a 3.125" round nav head. For nav you set a frequency and set OBS. For GPS nav well.... long story and there is no standard. It's make and model dependent. it's but basic functions should be fairly easy to master with, TRAINING. (Simulators or PC trainers... there are around). How does he fly it? If he can fly a T-6 I am guessing he can fly a RV. However age catches up with us. Is it the fancy instruments and NAV or is he just is nervous about flying. Does he fly and land well? I need reading glasses now... :confused: So I get it. The little font on LCD in bright sunlight might be a challenge for older eyes.

Glass flight instrument - turn the juice on and set BARO.... of course checking it is working. I can see the info being overwhelming and how the data is being presented being so different. However after 100 hrs of flying it, then it is natural. There may be some PC based flight trainer / simulator for him to practice on. Some glass allows you to show a 6_pack verses the vertical tape.

Engine and System Inst - That takes some training but really can be left alone and should be intuitive. Of course is OVER KILL with 8 channels of CHT and EGT, plus FF in addition to what is normally in a steam gauge plane but with digital/bar display on a LCD screen.

Com and Transponder - this is somewhat same as before, unless it is integrated into the glass and radio head/control panels are remote controlled. I can see it being confusing. I see you have a stand alone Transponder, but your COM's I assume are part of the Garmin GPS units. The auto panel is another thing. I have one COM no audio panel. May be turn the second Garmin off.... simplify...

iPad - take it out or turn it off. if it is redundant.

GPS, NAV & Map- the map should be fairly easy, boot and look at it, but all the advanced functions are a lot to know.... again training and ground trainer/simulator. Is he or was he shooting Inst Approaches before? Frankly I don't know all the modern GPS operating procedures. Does KING flight school have a course? Does Garmin have a PC interactive trainer? I think they do.

The last option, may be the best, take all the glass out and give it to me, and install the steam gauges. :D (sorry could not resist). Seriously go fly with him. I have flown with older pilots who wanted a backup. I don't know his age, but some older pilots scare their self and lose confidants. Other older pilots around the airport get a reputation of not being safe. Not picking on Harrison Ford.... just saying. Older car drivers are the safest drivers, until they are not. My long departed Grandmother had a Chevy II. Every-time we went over to her house, I'd see new "paint transfer" on the side of the car... She liked side swiping bridge guard rails. I remember my parents arguing about taking her driving away....

This is all you NEED per the FAR's for day VFR
cub-panel.jpg
 
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I have no real wisdom or lots of acronyms after my name, but did transition to my dual G3X/650 panel that has no steam gauges. I went from a 1969 182 cockpit with a DME to this one.

I had doubts about my ability to adapt, but forced the issue and approached it as your partner probably did in every new airplane ever flown, with an organized self teaching process.

VFR, looking outside was all about flying the plane, but renewing IFR after 35 yrs was a completely different experience. I really struggled with too much information, scan, and buttonology. I went back to basics, wrote it down with pencil and paper, what information did I need, where was it, and what were the priorities. Apparently, I could not adapt to the chevrons, so reset the picture and overcame that . . .many more examples. After a trial by fire in several IFR training flights, self study, and a bit of soak time in-between, suddenly it all came together, like seeing the old lady and young lady in the picture at the same time. I truly mean suddenly. One flight it just happened.

Only your judgment and a honest discussion with your partner will solve your dilemma, but if this old dog can learn new tricks, any old dog can.

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb must want to change.
 
Made a decision!

I going to help my partner better understand the screen by taking it one step at a time --
 
Yesterday

I did a cross country yesterday in a spam can rental. In op gps, in op autopilot, barely functional vor.
I really enjoyed the flight because I had to FLY the whole way. Sometimes for me, a dumbed down panel is more enjoyable on a spring day.
 
I am going to help my partner start out with a familiar screen that only takes three actions:

1. Swipe right to remove map
2. Press "EFIS"
3. Press "Analog"

And he will end up with this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-sWNfCZS/0/85beb64b/L/i-sWNfCZS-L.jpg

This will get us started in the right direction --

I appreciate all of the suggestion.

Ron

I?m a steam gauge guy myself, except for the Garmin Aera 660....love that! I have engine monitor and FF compuer too.

What happens if your partner presses the wrong button by mistake? Or even a few buttons by mistake? Is there a simple way for him to get back to the original starting point? I can imagine that might be intimidating to think about. Theres gotta be a very easy way for him to get back to the original starting point.
 
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