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Prospective RV-7 builder looking for advice...

uninc4life2010

I'm New Here
Hello,

I first garnered an interest in kit airplanes when I visited Oshkosh about 15 years ago as a young child. I was amazed to learn that some of the small planes on display were actually built by an everyday person. Well, I recently revisited Oshkosh over my Christmas vacation with my father, and seeing the RV-3 on display re-kindled my interests. Well, the more research I did, the more questions I inevitably needed answering. I really hope that this is the right place for this on the forum. Anyways, below are a few questions that I currently had on my mind.

Is a Van's practice kit or practice toolbox the right place to start?

Like many of you here, I do not have any experience working with sheetmetal or building flying aircraft. I do, however, have experience building and flying my own FPV RC aircraft, and I have always been a very mechanically minded person who enjoys projects like this. I understand that many of you probably learned as you went, but I am a bit nervous about learning to do things like dimple and rivet on an airplane that I may one day fly in, so I figured that a practice kit could give me nice head start before I begin work on a real airplane's tail section.

How much would I need to spend in tools before starting a practice kit?

I'm sure all of you are going to say something along the lines of "If you're already asking this question now, run for the hills." but I figure I'd do it anyway. I have heard that all of the tools needed will generally run around $3,000, but I'm not sure if those tools will all be required through every stage of the build. I know some of them, like the DRDT-2, can get REALLY pricy.

Why is the RV-12 listed as such a lower build time and cost?

I noticed on Van's site that the RV-12 has a 700-900 hour build time, which is considerably less than what I have heard for the RV-7. Why is this? I know that the RV-12 isn't acrobatic, and I know that the Rotax engine it uses is significantly less than a Lycoming, but I'm not sure why else it would be less.

Is it reasonable to think that an RV-7 empennage could get completed in one summer?

Don't get me wrong, I anticipate this project, if it ever even happens, to take a long time from both a build perspective and a financial perspective. I'm still in school (NC State) and possibly considering graduate study now, so even if I were able to finish an empennage, I wouldn't have the time or the money to begin a set of wings or fuselage until I was done with my studies. However, my parents do have a spacious garage and work station, and I likely will have a good amount of spare time over the summer when I'm not in school, likely 6 weeks or more. It seems like most people are able to get the empennage done in around 100-200 hours. If I set 40 hours per week aside over the summer, it would seem reasonable that I could get it done in 6 weeks or so.

From what I have read, things appear to get quite serious from both a building and cost perspective when the wings and fuselage start to get underway. I have seen pictures and videos of many people building their empennage in their apartment living room, but it seems like they consider moving to a dedicated work shop or large garage once the other sub kits arrive. My plan, should I ever complete an empennage, would be to build a few padded plywood crates to store the VS, HS, and rudder/elevator long term in the loft of out garage until I can complete school and start work on the other sections of the plane.

Is a build class recommended, how much do they cost, and are they available in the North Carolina area?

I figure they are a good idea, but I would like to hear from people who are more familiar with them.

Looking back on your experience building an airplane, do you view it as a rewarding and worthwhile experience? Are you glad you chose to take on such a monumental project?

I just ask because I would hate to look back on the project wishing I had spent my time doing something else. I had always enjoyed building my RC airplanes, as I felt like they gave me an important sense of satisfaction once I saw them fly. I was attracted to the idea of building an RV-7 because I feel like it would give me that same feeling, just on a much larger scale. Plus, I like the idea of joining an exclusive club of people who have actually built and flown their own airplanes.


I'm sorry that this was a long post, but I would like to thank anyone in advance who answers any of my questions. If you have anything you would like to add that isn't directly related to my questions above, please feel free to do so. I want to learn as much as possible, even if I never end up building an airplane.


I'd like to add that I've been following the progress of a few people who currently have an online presence, and I'd like to list them below.



I followed Andrew's RV-7 blog, but I was disappointed to see that his last post was in 2012. I wonder if he ever finished his project. If anyone is aware of how his project is coming along and con point me in the direction of an update, I would really like to know.

https://n999za.com/2010/05/29/primed-some-left-elevator-stiffeners/


Jason Ellis seem like a really smart guy and appears to have made incredible progress on his RV-10. He stated that his goal was to have it flying by 2020, and I think that he very well could meet that time frame. He certainly has the space to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrOhVh8bQQ&t=1s


Andrew Atalla is one of the apartment builders I was referencing earlier in my post, although I would bet that he ends up with one of the finest built RV-7's in Canada since he is a mechanic by trade. Regardless, he's going to need to find a larger workspace soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7aHjetiOcs&t=70s
 
My blunt reply: If you are in college, or, especially grad school, you don't have the time to be building.
You don't mention if you have a pilot's license. Unless you plan to build and sell (which some do) that's another complication.
But if you want to get your feet wet, try to borrow the tools (or buy some) and build the practice toolbox this summer.
 
I'm in the process of building an RV-7 and am doing it in my basement, take a look at my build log in my signature below.

Currently on the tail kit, and about to order my wings. I had many of your first questions, so I'll try to answer below:

Is a Van's practice kit or practice toolbox the right place to start?
Yes, on both. Actually you will probably want to 1 or 2 of the practice kits, and maybe one or two of the tool boxes. I actually ended up doing three practice kits myself, and my wife and I each done a tool box.

How much would I need to spend in tools before starting a practice kit?
I actually bought an Isham full tool kit from another builder on the forums here. You'll need at least a good drill, drill bits (#30 and #40), dozen or more clecos in 1/8 and 3/32 size, rivet gun with flush set, and a 1/8 done head set and bucking bar, and if you plan on practicing priming, you'll need whatever setup you are going to use (HVLP, and cleaners. and scotchbrite). And thats just for the practice kits and tool box.

Pro-Tip: If you are planning on building for sure, Get the DRDT-2....its freaking awesome and is probably my favorite tool, with the pneumatic squeezer taking a second place.


Why is the RV-12 listed as such a lower build time and cost?

From what little research I have done on the RV-12, its due to it using pop rivets, and much simpler construction. It's also a smaller airplane by a little, and the factory completes a bunch of the work already.

Is it reasonable to think that an RV-7 empennage could get completed in one summer?
It depends on how much you want to work on it. I am right at 90 hours on my tail kit build, and you can see where that landed me on my build log. My build log shows the amount of time I spent for each categories on the right hand side, with the total time being at the top (times are listed in the first set of parenthesis, while number of logs are the second set). I am figuring its going to take me probably somewhere between 150 and 200 hours to complete the tail kit, but I am priming all my pieces which adds a good deal of work. I started on mine around the end of October and took the holidays off from working on it because we had family in. You might can get it done during the summer if you stay on it.

Is a build class recommended, how much do they cost, and are they available in the North Carolina area?

I recommend them. I did the EAA course for Vans Aircraft Assembly:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ps/eaa-sportair-workshops-courses/rv-assembly
In that weekend course, you will actually build a practice kit, and learn a ton of valuable build skills if you are a first time builder. I did the one down in GA, and it was a good course that I highly recommend. EAA also has a "Sheet Metal" class for metal airplanes that is also good from what I hear.

Looking back on your experience building an airplane, do you view it as a rewarding and worthwhile experience? Are you glad you chose to take on such a monumental project?
I'm not done, so I may not be able to give you what you are looking for. But, I wanted to build an airplane for the complete purpose of the enjoyment of building. I chose Vans because of the ton of succesfull kits built, the huge abundance of help (VAF is the best place) and the end product is a very capable airplane! For me, its a hobby that I enjoy. I work in IT (my company is not far from your school, Red Hat, in Raleigh!) for a living, so by the end of an 8 hour day on the computer, I like to go down in the workshop and do something with my hands to relax. Also seeing the parts take shape and come together is very satisfying. I enjoy the planning, research and thought and then going down to the basement and putting that mental knowledge to use on the physical parts and seeing something take shape. I can tell you this, as soon as my RV-7 is done, I am going to order a tail kit for an RV-10 :)


You'll also find there are several of us RV-7 builders that are all in the same place on the tail kits, and several of us have chatted here on the forums and answered each others questions and encouraged each other, and there are always the guys that have already built in the past that are always a wealth of knowledge to answer any questions. I have read a lot of Larry's posts and he has helped me out on a lot of my questions. It's an amazing community here, and this community is one of the main reasons I chose to build an RV instead of something like a much cheaper and quicker to build Challenger :)

While I don't do any videos, I do post all of my progress here in the forums under the "builders log" section of the forums, and I also post on my own blog: www.theskunkwerx.com for every single work session I do.

I usually take a metric Cr@p ton of photos, and put them all in a Google Photos album here: https://goo.gl/photos/fhxxvuRSBfKsqeSe9

Hope that helps!
 
I helped my dad build an RV-6 while I was in high school, so I knew what I was getting into when I started building my -7 a couple years ago. But if you're still in school, I wouldn't start building yet. Right now, I'd work on getting your license.

I'd wait to start building until you have a sufficient amount of money saved up such that your disposable income will carry you to the end of the project.

Also be aware that 40 hours a week, while possible for a college student out for the summer, is a pretty aggressive estimate for someone who's working full time. Yeah, if you're single it's doable, but chances are your significant other won't be as into building as you are and will probably want much of your time directed elsewhere. And if you have kids... good luck making any significant progress for a while, at least while they're babies. I'm coming up on four years with my project, some of that interrupted by building a workshop (cool idea but probably not the greatest decision in hindsight) and some by adopting a baby. I still have a few more years to go.
 
The above is all very good advice!

As for buying tools, you will spend way more on tools than you budget. I was spending a couple a hundred dollars a month just on tools tools for the life of the project. Now, you you can save money, if you find someone to lend lend you their expensive tools.

The probis, just as you finish one section, you need a specialized tool for the next. For example, you must have an inch-pound torque wrench to complete the tail section, a good one costs over $100, and they are not included in the starter tool kit.

Keep dreaming and planning but wait until after graduation.
 
Sbjective

This is one of the most subjective areas you can get into with regard to building an aircraft. Anything can be done and everyone has their own skill set and knowledge base. It is very much a learning and formative experience. You will be better for trying, one way or the other. Rather than get into a long diatribe here, " My writing skills are not that good" I see your location listed.
You may wish to go out to "8A7" just outside Advance, N.C.. There are 6 or 7 "RV's on the field there and three of the best builders in that area. Check your PM's. It may be a good place to start. Hope to get you some answers so you can get started "Now or in the future". Yours, R.E.A. III #80888
 
while you are still in school you could start acquiring tools. Shop around and you can save if you are in no hurry. If you don't build, you can always resell them. You will also need to learn to use them and that will take some time. Learn to rivet with either hand in awkward positions and also learn to remove all types of rivets. Much more but you get the idea.
 
Well, grad students don't sleep much so you might have the time.

If you do chose to build . . .

Skills - you can build the kit, drill out the rivets and build it again a couple of times, good practice all around, but only a taste of actual building the emp. Skills just begin with the tail section, there are progressively more difficult projects as the build continues right up to the end. Earlier models have the expectation that you have these skills developed and the instructions trail off considerably. Take a 7 for instance. The 14 is a new generation and is much, much, better in every way.

As a first build, just a suggestion, set a beginners goal for an airplane. Stay on the Vans plans, only deviate when they are wrong, and validated so by some tips here on VAF. Don't worry about building the ultimate as a first project, if you want to fly it. This will allow the project to match your skills (and development pace) and it will get finished and fly much sooner. You can always up grade in the coming years if the grin is not big enough. Particularly with avionics. Once you build one, you can build another in 1/2 the time.

Overall, You might be best served by finding a local mentor that has master builder skills to talk to and work with once in a while. 10-30 minutes a week will save many hours of headaches.

Good luck in your decision.
 
Is a Van's practice kit or practice toolbox the right place to start?

I did this after the SportAir class just to hone my skill. Do either one or both. They are both worthwhile projects to learn on.

How much would I need to spend in tools before starting a practice kit?

For the kit you'll need a squeezer, some #40 and #30 drill bits and a handful of clecos and cleco pliers, a set of pull style dimplers. Most of the other tools you can get at your local DIY store. You can probably look to spend $250-$300.

I spent $5k (for the emp). I have the DRDT-2 and love it. I have the Isham tool kit and love it. You will find that everyone loves the toolkit they bought leading me to believe that there is no wrong choice there.

Is it reasonable to think that an RV-7 empennage could get completed in one summer?

All of this sounds good. You should easily be able to complete the emp in a summer. You can probably build it on your apartment or dorm. The wing is when you have to find real room to build.

Is a build class recommended, how much do they cost, and are they available in the North Carolina area?

Loved the classes. All your answers are at the EAA link.
 
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Questions

Nick
Welcome. The answers you seek may be best found at a local EAA Chapter meeting. Buy a tool box. Take it to a meeting and ask if anyone will help you learn. You may be suprised how many offer. We love to share. This will give you first hand experience and help you decide into which end of this pool you choose to dive.
 
Hi Nick, your post brought back some very fond memories. I had the aviation bug BAD when I was in college. The cool part of college for me was freedom and creativity. The downside was $$ and time. With that there were many opportunities to get creative...

I got my PPL ticket by bartering at the local airport. I'd work 4P to 8A and sleep on the couch in the lobby. Cover line duties at night for transients, clean up the rental fleet, sweep and mop the hangars and make sure nobody stole anything. Slept on the couch in the lobby. Instead of pay, I got 1 hr of time in the rental 152 per night. This worked out for everybody. Got to know all the locals. My only out of pocket was CFI time.

My first "airplane" project was an old Weedhopper ultralight basket case restoration. I worked on it in a corner of the box hanger, did the engine work and small parts in the dorm room. Got some friends majoring in engineering to machine parts I needed on the school's CNC equipment. Boy were they excited to get to work with real material instead of carving foam...

My first real build was a TEAM MiniMax 1100r. I built this in a 2 bedroom townhome (starting grad school with a new wife). Emp and wings in the spare upstairs bedroom. Fuse in the living room. Made an interesting coffee table. Rigging was done in the parking lot. Folks on the university sub team helped with the composites. Industrial engineering helped with welding. Got all the way up to covering in the apartment, did the paint in my dad's shed 100 miles away over a summer.

Many years later I'm building a -7. The difference is that this is a serious airplane. Real $$, and real space needed. The fuse is way wider than a standard entry door. Garage or shop needed. 6-10x the hours and $$ investment of my MiniMax. $$$$ in specialized tools. Incompatible with college life unless some kind of organized build or a deep pocket sponsor (parents?).

Looking back I loved the creativity I had to get things done. Use that to scratch your "itch." Get plugged in at the airport with the pilots and mechanics. Find the EAA chapter and/or the builders and lend some help. You can get very busy working toward your PPL and with build assist- without investing the kind of $$ to build your own just yet. There's time for that down the road.
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone! I think that the best thing for me to do is to finish school and start putting money away. Even if I never start building, I'll have saved money, so I guess it can't hurt. I may start to try and acquire a tool set to begin work on the Van's practice airfoil over the summer, but based upon what I have read here, I don't think that I'll be starting the empennage any time within the next two years.

There is one more thing I would like to ask you all, however. How was the response from your friends and family once they found out that you were planning on building an airplane? I brought up the idea to my father, and he basically responded by saying, "This is unquestionably the worst idea you've ever had."
 
There is one more thing I would like to ask you all, however. How was the response from your friends and family once they found out that you were planning on building an airplane?

My friends and especially family are very supportive. Don't let the opinion of one person steer you away from YOUR dream(s).

Do the toolbox and other practice kit, then decide if the empennage can fit into your schedule, even if it takes two years to complete. Also, try to find someone else in your area that is building and help them when time permits. They will return the favor down the road.
 
Against all odds...

Hey Nick.

So I feel like I have to jump on this because I am doing exactly what you are proposing... I am still in school. I started in my dorm room. I asked this question before and got bashed pretty hard with great concerns that this is not the right time to take on this kind of project. These are all valid points. And it is good that the people who are more knowledgeable and probably twice my age offered them. Really, it made me think long and hard about it. The beauty of experimental aviation is that you are making the decisions. I thought about it for a year before the practice kit... Then life threw me a curve ball and I waited for another 9 month before I really got started but eventually I just called VANS and got started. Result: I LOVE IT!

This is all about self control, dedication and time management. I only work on the project at nights say 9pm-unitl i am tired. I quit FB and all social media. I don't watch TV in my free time. Because I traded my lazy time for build time.
Maybe I should be out partying with my peers instead... maybe I will regret this in the future...maybe not...Who knows.

In the end of the day this is YOUR decision. Do what ever makes you happy. Do the practice kit and see how you like it. No time like the present ;)

I decided a few things:

I am doing the Empenage.
I am going to try my absolute best.
I am going to have fun with it.
I am going to take all the time I want and work slowly because I have no money for wings...If it takes 3 years. I don't care!
If I don't end up finishing this plane now, I wont be sad. This makes some really cool furniture... Until things change and they come of the wall and get attached to a fuselage.

This isn't meant to be a pep talk. Take what other have written seriously. I am by no means experienced in anything. Lastly this forum is the best tool in my tool bag! So step one you have successfully completed...These are just my 2 cents.
 
Advise

There is one more thing I would like to ask you all, however. How was the response from your friends and family once they found out that you were planning on building an airplane? I brought up the idea to my father, and he basically responded by saying, "This is unquestionably the worst idea you've ever had."

Everyone, including family and thankfully my Sweetie, has been supportive. I wish my dad were alive to share this experience. It was his dream as well.
He's your dad but maybe he doesn't understand. Take him to the EAA Chapter meeting or get him a ride.
 
Prospective....

Something that you might consider is helping someone work on their project. There would be a couple of big advantages there.
First of all is that it costs you only your time. You can allocate as much or as little as you can afford and as a student, time can be critical.
Second is that it doesn't involve a direct financial hit for you.
Third is that you gain experience that will make your future project go far, far more easily and efficiently.
Fourth and maybe most important of all is that you establish yourself in the Van's group of builders and aviators. Almost all hobby type groups assist and encourage fellow travelers, but Van's builders are exceptionally helpful. They want you to enjoy what you are doing and they want you to be safe doing it.
There just isn't any downside to helping someone and far more benefits than I list here.
Good luck,
 
The bottom line is you can spend just as much on this project as you want. If money is no object, then shoot for the moon.

At the same time, though, I found it helpful to try to stay grounded in the Tony Bingelis/Paul Poberezny approach to homebuilding, for no other reason than the culture of what I was to undertake. I actually did very much want to relate to them and the Wright Brothers and all of the people who've built airplane. Also money was an object for me. Cutting expenses were I could was important to me.

I didn 't do any of the fancy tools, and I still spent $2,000 on getting set up. Keep in mind, however, you can sell the tools later.

...unless...

You find that you really enjoyed the practice of building an airplane, which you should plan on. Because you'll want to build another eventually.

The question about family is important. You can ruin a marriage or a relationship in a hurry with this project if you're not on the same page. Money is usually the big thing. I tried to explain to my spouse that I was merely transferring money from one account to another since a completed plane could fetch more than you put into it. And, indeed, I found that to be the case when I eventually sold.

She reminded me during construction that "this is YOUR project." She was fully supportive of me doing it, but she made it clear I shouldn't expect that this is something she wanted to be involved in. That's important because it meant working hard at pulling myself away from the project to devote myself to the family and sharing the experiences of being a family.

Do NOT underestimate the value of doing that. Do not underestimate the necessity of doing that.

Looking back on your experience building an airplane, do you view it as a rewarding and worthwhile experience? Are you glad you chose to take on such a monumental project?

I've written about this a number of times so I won't waste anyone's time repeating myself. There aren't THAT many people on this planet who have done what you're about to do. That's impressive. That's the sort of thing that makes you feel proud at the end of the project.

At the end of it, you also have an airplane and a bunch of friends you couldn't imagine gaining.

I am the typical "if I can build it, anyone can" person. And anyone can IF they want to build an airplane. Not if they want an airplane, but if they want to BUILD an airplane. The two are not the same.

This project can humble and frustrate you no end. It can make you fearful of the money situation. All of that is real. It can also be one of the biggest accomplishments of your life. It's a journey. Enjoy the journey.

Eye on the prize, my friend. Eye on the prize.
 
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I brought up the idea to my father, and he basically responded by saying, "This is unquestionably the worst idea you've ever had."

Parental instinct.. My dad didn't like the idea when I was in school. So I made a deal and he paid for the BRS chute :D. He's in his 70's now and still doesn't like me flying. I totally get it now that I have a daughter in college.

College is about experiences and networking. If you want to try experimental aviation- go for it! Plenty of action to be found without diving into your own build.
 
I brought up the idea to my father, and he basically responded by saying, "This is unquestionably the worst idea you've ever had."

Nice. Way to be supportive, pop.

You're an adult and can do whatever you want, but yes, you might want to take him to a fly-in so he can see what a completed RV can look like, and that they're not some deathtrap.

But by all means, don't let someone *else* dissuade you from pursuing *your* goals and dreams.
 
Nice. Way to be supportive, pop.

You're an adult and can do whatever you want, but yes, you might want to take him to a fly-in so he can see what a completed RV can look like, and that they're not some deathtrap.

But by all means, don't let someone *else* dissuade you from pursuing *your* goals and dreams.

You have to understand "dad speak" to understand what he's saying. Dadspeak should never be translated literally. Ever.

I always use as an example, the Dixie Chicks "Wide Open Spaces" where the daughter is leaving home and the mother wails that she's losing her daughter while dad says, "check the oil."

Dad wasn't really concerned about the oil.
 
While building in college can be a lot of fun, spending that time studying or socializing is a better use of that opportunity. Been there and done that and made that mistake.

If the money's there and you have a pilot's license, consider buying a used RV.

Given that, here's some answers:

Is a Van's practice kit or practice toolbox the right place to start?

Sure. It's a small introduction. Get them both.

How much would I need to spend in tools before starting a practice kit?

Zero, if you can find a local builder who will mentor you. Which is definitely worth doing.

Why is the RV-12 listed as such a lower build time and cost?

Mostly the excellent instructions (all the double-digit RVs have those), the prepunched parts (all the RVs starting with the -7 have these) and the blind rivets.

FYI, the RV-12 is a delightfully good handling airplane with superb visibility. I thought it handled better than the -6 and the -4 I flew, although the -4 was close.

Is it reasonable to think that an RV-7 empennage could get completed in one summer?

Sure.

Is a build class recommended, how much do they cost, and are they available in the North Carolina area?

Yes, unless your mentor has taken you past that. Example - I've showed a lot of people how to rivet. I've got some scrap parts that I use for this.

Looking back on your experience building an airplane, do you view it as a rewarding and worthwhile experience?

Generally, but I've spent many hours in the shop alone, and that takes a toll.

Are you glad you chose to take on such a monumental project?

It's meeting my goals, which is to have an interesting project that makes me think. I haven't finished nor flown the plane yet so I can't comment about that. I chose this particular RV for its difficulty and have not been disappointed.

Dave
RV-3B under construction
 
I think the best time to start building is soon after you start your full time career (assuming $$ is available). Time is by far more difficult to acquire than money in my opinion. You'll find that free time decreases while income increases as you get older. I started when I was 22 and single. One important byproduct of building is that it gave me confidence to attempt projects in real estate, which I've turned into a nice side gig that now pays for flying.
 
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