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Your dream IFR panel comes true

vikbee

Well Known Member
Simple robust IFR panel.

Simple - less wiring and as few separate devices as possible means easier installation and higher reliability, less weight.
Robust - maximum capability with minimal number of devices.
Cheaper than other options. Nothing is cheap in aviation though.

Assumptions:

1. You want to get your instrument rating and/or fly light IFR (pocking thru clouds occasionally, filing IFR routes, approaches etc).
2. Be able to execute an instrument approach to a maximum number of small airports maximizing the utility value of your airplane.

After a lot of research, let me introduce you my panel.

a). iCom IC-A210 com radio. Takes only 1.3" in your avionics stack.
- Modern OLED display and flip-flop frequencies.
- Dual-watch capability (listen to ATIS while on ATC frequency) makes it equivalent to two coms.
- Build-in intercom - eliminate a separate intercom making wiring easier - less mess under the panel. The intercom actually works really well.
- In addition, iCom IC-A210 has 3 aux audio inputs, make it sort of replacement for an audio panel. We are going to use these inputs for audio out from
other radios.
- Also, iCom IC-A210 can automatically store the nearby airport frequencies fed over RS-232 from GPS. We are going to use this function as well.
- Finally, the com has speaker output, if you need/want it.
- What about redundancy? Well, modern Japanese electronics is very reliable. You most likely to have total electrical failure, in which case
even 3 coms won't help. Besides, you did not forget to grab your handheld and program the tower phone number into your phone connected to
your headset by bluetooth, did you? If something happens, you are better of using your handheld or simply calling the tower on approach.
Besides, you will need an audio panel for > 1 com radio, adding complexity. Not all audio panels have fail safe mode as well, in which case, loosing your
audio panel means loosing both coms. Do not ask me how I know this.
There is a Garmin version of this radio, for twice the price.

b). Narco NAV-122 VOR/LOC/GS/MB - a full blown ILS system built into the indicator. Does not take any space in your avionics stack.
Installation is very simple: power and dimmer light wires + audio out (to iCom IC-A210 aux input). You will have to crank the volume up at NAV-122
to ident a station and turn it down after. Big deal? You already have to do the same on many NAV/COMs anyway.
If you only have one NAV antenna, you can use a splitter to feed GS and MB. We will loose some signal here, but we are not B-787 that needs
to pick up the station signal from 100s miles away. Alternatively, you can connect your NAV antenna to VOR socket, add small GS antenna under
the windshield and forego the MB all together (is it really needed these days?). Or you can split your NAV antenna between VOR and MB adding
GS antenna. It is all up to you. I split NAV antenna between three and was happy with that. Just be sure you NAV antenna is in good shape.
These units are usually very reliable. Plastic gears do fail once in 20 years, but gears are available.

We are technically almost IFR now. Just need to add a certified clock with second handle. But wait, here comes the bomb:

c). King KLN-94 approach certified GPS with color moving map + Collins IND-350 indicator.
This GPS only takes 2" in your avionics stack but give you the following:
- Ability to legally file and fly IFR routes and GPS approaches (non-precision. If you need LPV approach capability, we are not talking about
"light IFR" anymore and you are in the wrong price range).
- Legally substitute as a DME and a second VOR. You can legally do this if your GPS is IFR certified (installation should also be IFR certified,
a bit later about this). Means you can legally execute VOR/DME approaches as well as those very rare approaches that require dual VOR.
- You can continue to illegally use your grand-grand watch to time the holds and approaches. KNL-94 has built in clock which certifies your
plane as IFR.
- If you have a fuel flow meter, you can connect it to KLN-94 and it will calculate fuel remaining at the destination. This might eliminate some
intermediate landings as you do not have to be ultraconservative since you know exactly how much fuel you will have left at the destination.
It is no longer 45 min +/- 1 hour. It is 1 hour +/- 5 min. Does it makes a difference?
- It will send the airport frequencies to you iCom IC-A210, give you altitude alerts
- etc etc

To make all this happen, you need to connect power and dimmer lights wires, audio out wire to your iCom IC-A210 and 9 wires to your blind encoder
in parallel to your transponder. Since this particular GPS has build in anounnciators, you do not have to install any additional lights on your panel
to make your installation IFR certified. This is one of the reasons this GPS made it to my list. KLN-89b is cheaper, but does not have a moving map and
requires separate announciators. What about GNS-430? Well, if you have extra $$$$ to spend you are in the wrong department.
Collins indicator is correctly wired to the GPS. That is it, the GPS is capable to read the OBS allowing you to execute any intercepts. People often omit this
step.
You have to drill your roof to install a GPS antenna. But since you are using your GPS antenna for the second VOR, you do not have to steal signal from your
NAV antenna for this. It is a real plus. Also, you are using the same GPS as DME. No need to poke extra holes at the bottom of your lovely RV-6 to install
DME antenna (think about all those knots you do not have to loose). Also, you do not have to bring it to a certified shop each time you want to pull the GPS out.
DME on the other hand, just like any transponder, requires a certified shop each time you need to touch it. I am sure you have your transponder signed off
each time you have to pull it out!
These GPSs are very relaible. Just protect the display from overheating (put a towel on the panel in the sun) and, most important,
stop poking it hard with your dirty fingers! It is not a touch screen!

The total price for all this stuff prewired $4995 +shipping (so that you can tell your wife it is < $5K).
Is it expensive? Definitely not cheap, but much more affordable that any other option with comparable capabilities.
What are we lacking? LPV approaches. The reality is that 1000s of small airports have non-precision GPS approach, while very few
have LPV published. So, we are not missing much. Again, if you must have LPV approach capability, it is in the next department. Just add $5K or so.
Besides, if things go really bad, you have ILS, which has lower minimums than LPV. Remember that NAV-122? That is why you have it.

It is all used avionics after all. What if a component fails and can not be fixed? Well, you are screwed. You will have to spend $1-2K to replace it with the same.
Just slide the sucker out and slide in the new one. Log book entry if you care. Do not tell your wife! What if your GNS750 fails right out of warranty?
Now you are really screwed since your wife will notice those loan papers coming in the mail! In the absence of a new car, she will fugure out where the money went :)

Conclusion: you can get a very robust and capable IFR panel with very modest (by aviation standards) investments taking only 3.3" on the panel space and
leaving the rest to you real, but illegal, navigator - that $100 Chinese made tablet running AVARE. For the snobs - go with that over (priced, heating) iPad
running Foreflight, which is a really good software, but a rotten apple dropped on those electronic charts making them unreadable :)
Seriously, if you have to have Foreflight, you are a professional pilot. This is the wrong department.

Now, I am opened to your critical comments. Did I miss something? Are my assumptions wrong? Can the same be done easier and/or cheaper?
Why I am selling such a marvelous cow? I got a fully IFR equipped airplane with GNS480 installed. I do not think it is a good idea to fix perfectly working panel.
 
The Nav122 is a great unit; I?ve owned many of them. If I were going to use it in my airplane I?d want one or two spares ready on the shelf because they are basically unrepairable.
 
Might as well get a used vac pump to go along with it. ��

LMAO !!!! :D:D:D:D:D


The Nav122 is a great unit; I’ve owned many of them. If I were going to use it in my airplane I’d want one or two spares ready on the shelf because they are basically unrepairable.

That's what I would change. Narco went out of business and nobody wants to fix them. I went the same soft IFR route but installed a VAL INS-429 because it's a modern, current radio that does exactly what the NAV-122 does but better. The Narco NAV-122 is all mechanical while the INS-429 is all digital and VAL is a solid company still making various radios.


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/valINS429.php


You can pay now or pay later with the King KLN-94. For a couple thousand $$ more I'd buy a brand new current modern GPS-175.
 
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When the Narco stuff breaks, just throw it away. Nobody will work on it.

Most often the plastic gears break. They are available. Other than that, very few shops will touch those units. However, inside, they are a motherboard with three daughter boards. Swapping is plug and play. So, it is possible to fix the units if you have few spares laying around :)
 
LPV capability for $1000

I was with you until the KLN-94 came into the picture.

Why not buy a 430W for $6k and ditch the rest? You will have a modern radio with the added capability of LPV approaches. The install with be more simple and the radio is light years more reliable than Narco stuff. You don?t need a MB.

B
 
Most often the plastic gears break. They are available. Other than that, very few shops will touch those units. However, inside, they are a motherboard with three daughter boards. Swapping is plug and play. So, it is possible to fix the units if you have few spares laying around :)

If you have to keep spare radios just buy something new because a hotel and food and expenses will cost more if you get stuck away from home a couple of nights because the outdated stuff failed and you just have a thin layer you can't get through to get home.
 
I was with you until the KLN-94 came into the picture.

Why not buy a 430W for $6k and ditch the rest? You will have a modern radio with the added capability of LPV approaches. The install with be more simple and the radio is light years more reliable than Narco stuff. You don?t need a MB.

B

Why an old 430W when for $2000 less you can buy a new GPS-175? We can play this game all night. The problem is you get what you pay for. People are updating their panels every day, you just have to wait for the right deal to show up and have cash ready for it.
 
I was with you until the KLN-94 came into the picture.

Why not buy a 430W for $6k and ditch the rest? You will have a modern radio with the added capability of LPV approaches. The install with be more simple and the radio is light years more reliable than Narco stuff. You don?t need a MB.

B

GNS430W is a good unit, but:
- it cost $4K more than KLN-94 + ~ $1K more for the indicator.
- does it has "dual watch" capability and built in intercom? If not, you still need a second com + audio panel = complexity and extra $$$$.
- you still want a second VOR, so maybe NAV-121 will do since GNS430 has GS.
At the end, you will pay much more, take more panel space, add complexity. Sure, you gain LPV, but my assumption was that all I need is LIGHT IFR. So, KLN-94 + NAV-122 will do for NAV.
 
If you have to keep spare radios just buy something new because a hotel and food and expenses will cost more if you get stuck away from home a couple of nights because the outdated stuff failed and you just have a thin layer you can't get through to get home.

We are talking about light IFR, aren't we? The probability that both NAV-122 and KLN-94 fail simultaneously is pretty low, unless you have a total electrical failure (than your newest GPS is down as well). I guess you can take off in light clouds with either KLN-94 or NAV-122 operational and you can land using either ILS or non-precision GPS approach.
 
LMAO !!!! :D:D:D:D:D




That's what I would change. Narco went out of business and nobody wants to fix them. I went the same soft IFR route but installed a VAL INS-429 because it's a modern, current radio that does exactly what the NAV-122 does but better. The Narco NAV-122 is all mechanical while the INS-429 is all digital and VAL is a solid company still making various radios.


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/valINS429.php

If you just want to save money and still want to buy something obsolete instead of buying a NAV-122 buy a Terra TRI-NAV for about $600.

You can pay now or pay later with the King KLN-94. For a couple thousand $$ more I'd buy a brand new current modern GPS-175.

VAL INS429 is a great unit. A bit more expensive than NAV-122, but not by much. It is a good alternative. I totally agree. I was looking into it as well, but found NAV-122 and was totally happy with it. Either one will do.

GPS-175 is better than KLN-94 in all aspects, except:
- It cost at least $3K more + $1K extra for the indicator.
- Garmin only speak "garminish" these days. You are forced to buy other components from Garmin, pay $$$/year subscriptions to your tablet software etc. We are talking about a budget IFR panel here.
 
Another vote for a 430W

You have no GPS approach capability with your setup. The A210 is a good unit, I have one in my plane. I also have the 430W, and a Val Nav2000. Not that much more than what you are planing. With the 430 you can basically shoot any approach. Of course the newer GPS?s are a lot cooler, the 650/750 or the Avidyne units, but the 430W can do it all. When you are in the soup you will be a lot more comfortable with dual everything and a little more modern equipment.
 
You have no GPS approach capability with your setup. The A210 is a good unit, I have one in my plane. I also have the 430W, and a Val Nav2000. Not that much more than what you are planing. With the 430 you can basically shoot any approach. Of course the newer GPS?s are a lot cooler, the 650/750 or the Avidyne units, but the 430W can do it all. When you are in the soup you will be a lot more comfortable with dual everything and a little more modern equipment.

KLN-94 is an approach certified GPS.
 
I would add a Dynon PocketPanel as a backup. Inexpensive and easy to install. Even toss in a 496 for backup nav duties.
 
Yes, unfortunately I am selling all this. After carefully designing and picking component for this IFR panel for my old airplane ... I bought a new one with GNS480 and all that jazz already installed.
 
Yes, unfortunately I am selling all this. After carefully designing and picking component for this IFR panel for my old airplane ... I bought a new one with GNS480 and all that jazz already installed.

So you went from one panel with outdated unsupported equipment to another one?


Aviation Alerts and Advisories
Service Advisory 1874 Rev B: GNS 480 (CNX 80) End of Service Life
January 31, 2019

Garmin GNS 480 (CNX 80) units are affected.

ISSUE:

Repairs to the GNS 480 (CNX 80) display (including the bezel and LCD) are no longer available.

Effective 6/30/19, all other repair services and service parts are discontinued for the GNS 480 (CNX 80).

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviati...874-rev-b-gns-480-cnx-80-end-of-service-life/
 
I would add a Dynon PocketPanel as a backup. Inexpensive and easy to install. Even toss in a 496 for backup nav duties.

Dynon PocketPanel is a really great unit and almost a must have.

There are also some handhelds with NAV capabilities. Not sure they are convenient to use, but better than nothing when you need it. The best is not to get into situation when you really need any sort of backup NAV.
 
GPS 175 Information

VAL INS429 is a great unit. A bit more expensive than NAV-122, but not by much. It is a good alternative. I totally agree. I was looking into it as well, but found NAV-122 and was totally happy with it. Either one will do.

GPS-175 is better than KLN-94 in all aspects, except:
- It cost at least $3K more + $1K extra for the indicator.
- Garmin only speak "garminish" these days. You are forced to buy other components from Garmin, pay $$$/year subscriptions to your tablet software etc. We are talking about a budget IFR panel here.

You will find a few people in this group that have the GPS 175 interfaced to other manufacturer's systems, without the use of any additional equipment from Garmin.

The GPS 175 does require at minimum, an up to date internal Navigation database for IFR currency, which is true of any GPS Navigator of this type. The Navigation database can be purchased individually, without requiring you to purchase the additional databases that are geared more towards situational awareness, as that information is often provided by another source in the cockpit.

The use of the GPS 175 does not require the purchase or use of the Garmin Pilot app for any reason.

The GPS 175 is brand new from the factory rather than second hand, and comes with a 2 year warranty, that is something to consider as well.

Thanks,

Justin
 
I suppose one man’s heaven is another man’s h��ll! I flew with that Narco stuff 30 years ago and I’m not going back! You’ll be dealing with one failure after another . My $.02
 
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Going down the wrong path....

Maybe I missed something, aside from the early April fools day, but why is this in the classifieds?


Don
 
Narco 112 seriously? Is this a spoof? I put one in my varieze 40 yrs ago.
NAV-122 - big difference! Major problems with this unit is MHz and kHz gears that need to be changed every 20 years or so :)
I hope in 20 years even FAA finally approves a new chinese nav radio which cost $20 + $100 shipping by USPS :)
But more probably that in 20 years FAA will not exist as an independent agency any more and will simply be a stomper for chinese planes and avionics.
Anyway, NAV-122 is sold long time ago. So, it is a mute point now.
 
I suppose one man?s heaven is another man?s h��ll! I flew with that Narco stuff 30 years ago and I?m not going back! You?ll be dealing with one failure after another . My $.02
Narco stuff was hit or miss. Some radios were bulletproof and some spent more time in shops than in the sky. Nav-121/122 series were actually very nice and reliable until nylon gears that switch frequencies started to crack decades later. By that time, Narco was progressively going up ... belly first. Also, the company limited access to parts and manuals, so not many shops could work on their radios. They preferred "in house" repairs. Just like the famous G company today.
So, some Narco stuff is still a "good" buy. The keyword here is "some". And "good" is in quotes simply because nothing better is available for a reasonable price. A radio like NAV-122 but all digital (SDR - $10, OLED - $20, encoders and connectors - $10, case $10) can be built today for $100, will weight 0.5 lb and be 1" thick (mostly due to sub-D "industry standard" connector :) The problem is that FAA certification will cost $XXXM.
The only viable alternative is VAL unit. Which is $2K+ and not certified.
Sure, G company products are not bad (although very outdated compared to a $100 chinese tablet or phone), but one should budget $10-25K+ for a new unit + installation by a "certified shop" (many times, you do all the work, they just sign it for few $K). And if the unit fails out of warranty, G company will be happy to fix it for you for $5K+ adjusted for 20%/year inflation.
When you strip a gear in that outdated NAV-122, say good by to $200-300 to replace it. Sure, not pleasant, but it is 1/10 of what G company asks.
Let's wait for those $100 chinese radios. It is not too long now.
 
The Narco stuff in its day was decent equipment, but if you plan on going through the trouble of installing any Narco unit, you better have at least 1 working replacement unit on the shelf.
 
The only viable alternative is VAL unit. Which is $2K+ and not certified.

Why is that a problem? You can legally install a modern, currently produced, and from a solid company, VAL INS-429 in a certified aircraft, not that it’s important in any Van’s aircraft anyway.
 
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I do whatever I can to avoid buying Chinese products because I usually regret it. Unfortunately we have limited options with electronics.

Good luck with your cheap panel. While you are getting the kinks worked out and down for inevitable repairs, I?ll be out flying my Dynon/Garmin plane, which by the way, always works.
 
Hey , I didn't go back to look but that OP had to be an April Fools day post :D And I was partly in until the KLN74. I have one in a '59 C-172 and don't even turn it on.
 
I am still confused. Is this a classified ad as originally categorized, or a rant thread about obsolete equipment? Or both? I see no offer to sell or a price. Or anybody interested in anything other than pointing out the obvious.
 
I am still confused. Is this a classified ad as originally categorized, or a rant thread about obsolete equipment? Or both? I see no offer to sell or a price. Or anybody interested in anything other than pointing out the obvious.

This thread was preceded by another thread on the forum where the pros and cons of him having his obsolete panel versus installing modern avionics. Later apparently he bought another plane or panel with newer equipment so he?s here selling his obsolete panel. That?s where it took off and morphed into what we have now here.
 
Hard to believe it’s an April fools joke since the OP is still trying to justify obsolete panels and junk radios as recently as yesterday. I find it hard to justify some of the prices we see, but he is hoping for a $10 radio out of China! I don’t have any $10 parts on my mountain bike, let alone my airplane.

To each his own.
 
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The Narco stuff in its day was decent equipment, but if you plan on going through the trouble of installing any Narco unit, you better have at least 1 working replacement unit on the shelf.
Not a bad idea unfortunately. The good thing is that the spare does not cost $XXXXX, unlike a spare for the famous G company.
 
Hey , I didn't go back to look but that OP had to be an April Fools day post :D And I was partly in until the KLN74. I have one in a '59 C-172 and don't even turn it on.
I did not think that KLN74 beast even exists.
As for the KLN94 - it is a great unit for the money. It is very reliable and gives you a very important feature - legality. You are now legal to file and fly GPS approaches. How do you actually fly them is up to you.
 
Hard to believe it?s an April fools joke since the OP is still trying to justify obsolete panels and junk radios as recently as yesterday. I find it hard to justify some of the prices we see, but he is hoping for a $10 radio out of China! I don?t have any $10 parts on my mountain bike, let alone my airplane.

To each his own.

Where do you think your G-company equipment is assembled in? Where do you think the drugs you take are made in? Check US government websites about the critical drug shortage in US due to coronovirus ... in China.

As for the price of those chips, check digikey, newark etc. Ever heard of stratux which uses 2 x $8 SDR USB sticks + 1 x Raspberry Pie at $35. All retail prices by the way. Did you hear about that stuff failing? China is not is was 20 years ago. That is the reality.

The reality also is that you are flying behind your $25K panel assembled in China from components made in China. No complains?

My only complain is 1000x markup on that stuff by a "US" company to "certify" and "promote" and keep competitors our of the US market by filing lawsuits that claim that they own a patent on transmitting information by radio waves :)

The bottom line is that if you are ready to spend ~ $25K - you are in the wrong thread. My point was how to get a legal IFR panel that is the most capable in real world and spend somewhat reasonable money. If somebody can offer a better option for about 10-20% cost increase I will be listening very carefully. All the options to offer "much more modern" panel for triple price belong to a different thread - the one sponsored by a well known company.
 
It is very reliable and gives you a very important feature - legality. You are now legal to file and fly GPS approaches.

And with the VAL INS-429 you can legally fly en-route and also VOR and ILS approaches in Standard and Experimental aircraft. Plus it’s less than $2,000 and easily installed in 1 day.

You never answered why you had an issue with it not being TSO’d since radios don’t have to be certified to be legally installed in any aircraft.

BTW, the reason there will be shortage of some drugs isn’t because they’re made in China, it’s because some ingredients are from China.
 
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This thread was preceded by another thread on the forum where the pros and cons of him having his obsolete panel versus installing modern avionics. Later apparently he bought another plane or panel with newer equipment so he?s here selling his obsolete panel. That?s where it took off and morphed into what we have now here.

At least one person read the original post carefully! Thanks a lot.

Please, offer something not obsolete and legal which is as capable as the panel I suggest for comparable price. By comparable I mean within 10-20%.

Just for the sake of argument I can say that everything that the famous G company offers for us today for $10-25K is obsolete compare to the units we put on satellites and some high altitude balloons. Those IMUs have so much capabilities that the best G-company products look like children's toys. The starting price? Should I even mention it? Does it even matter? :)
 
At least one person read the original post carefully! Thanks a lot.

Please, offer something not obsolete and legal which is as capable as the panel I suggest for comparable price. By comparable I mean within 10-20%.

Just for the sake of argument I can say that everything that the famous G company offers for us today for $10-25K is obsolete compare to the units we put on satellites and some high altitude balloons. Those IMUs have so much capabilities that the best G-company products look like children's toys. The starting price? Should I even mention it? Does it even matter? :)

I?m not going to waste my time because I?ve answered some of your other questions and you just skip by and reply to the ones you want.
 
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