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Don't be a Doofus like me

NinerBikes

Well Known Member
Had a great flight lesson in my RV-12 last Friday. Flying around a central point, full on power stalls, full off power stalls. 30 deg turns, 45 degree turns, slow speed 50 kt's keep it level almost completely power off flight without stalling.

Every thing went great. Very good, steady straight in final approach, good elevation and speed management.

Made the runway, half flaps to full flaps, and chopped the throttle. Made the numbers maybe 4 or 5 feet over them. Instructor tells me again, urgently, to chop the throttle. I give the throttle a good tug, again.

This is where it got interesting.... NOT! We hit a wind burble, instructor had the controls and the plane flared up, stall horn speaks up, I am still hand on the throttle, we are about 10 feet above the ground, and the engine stopped running. Stone cold stopped. Numbers are way behind us.


Not a good situation! My instructor demanded I get a AP to fix the throttle problem. I get that signed off by an AP, it was at 1600 to 1650 rpm, Idle, warm.

Friend Bob shows me in the owners manual where Van's specifically states DO NOT PULL hard on the throttle, you can flex the arms on the throttle arm against the throttle stop and stall the engine.

I'm getting the replacement throttle springs from Van's ASAP.

My instructor called late Monday night while I was trying to schedule some more instruction hour flight lessons this week. "Different variables" had come up, and he suggested I find another flight instructor. When asked, he wouldn't go into the specifics.

He quit on me. Due to me being a student, and operator error.

Have to find a new flight instructor. His landing was perfect, even with dead stick, like a pro.

Folks, get those dang CARB springs on those Bing CARBS R&R'd, and don't scare yourself or your flight instructor with the creeping throttle problem.

Don't be a Doofus like me, and have the motor stall on you with your flight instructor... it doesn't build confidence, in the student, or the plane, for your
instructor.

It's hard enough to even find a flight instructor that will teach and train you for a Sport Pilot License. Let alone replace one that quits.
 
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I feel your pain! Finding any CFI's these days can be a real challenge. Most seem to work for the schools that are only interested in training the next airline pilot
 
Do you also have the "cable stops" installed? The ones with the small allen head screws? I have noticed they are NOT on other Rotax engines but only on RV12...
 
Do you also have the "cable stops" installed? The ones with the small allen head screws? I have noticed they are NOT on other Rotax engines but only on RV12...

Yes, and properly adjusted, in spec. They do not affect idle speed. Went through all the choke and throttle cables with an AP, as soon as the ferry got my new to me plane back from South Carolina to Southern CA. Pretty much did a complete Inspection of the plane before I flew it again for instruction here in CA. Just normal minor problematic fixes common to almost all Legacy RV-12s. Skyview Classic, with Garmin SL-40 COM, probably soon to be updated to a Garmin GTR-200.
 
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Instructor quit?

"In my humble opinion" an instructor is there to get you over the little burps like you had. That's why we need them. This should be an opportunity to find an instructor who will help you learn good habits and make you a better pilot. You don't need someone who drops you like a hot potato at the first sign of a challenge.
 
Instructor tells me again, urgently, to chop the throttle. I give the throttle a good tug, again.

I'm not a CFI but this seems really odd to me, why would you "urgently" tell a student to "chop" the power? it seems like saying anything urgently over the numbers just ups the stress at the max stress time for a new pilot. which in this case sounds like it caused you to pull the throttle out too hard causing an issue. a little higher throttle isn't a dangerous condition that needs urgent attention. I can see urgently telling a student to get the nose down if they're going to stall at 10 feet or whatever but I'm thinking a gentle questioning would be better in this situation. IMO based on your summary here you'll be better served with a new instructor anyway.

also as a tip, and maybe you were already doing this: I was instructed to always have my hand on the throttle under 1,000 ft unless my throttle hand is actively doing something else (flaps, trim, etc). a) it helps keep the throttle where you want it and b) your hand is right there to feed the power for an unexpected sink or a go-around if necessary.

lastly, as I'm sure you learned a "good tug" shouldn't be necessary with any controls and will often cause more problems than it solves.

anyway, that's my 2c
 
Yes, and properly adjusted, in spec. They do not affect idle speed.

Actually they do. That is their entire purpose.

They are there to prevent you from pulling so hard that you overcome the wimpy stops on the carburetors.
My suggestion is that another inspection be done while referencing the KAI and assure they are there and if they are, that they are properly installed.
 
Actually they do. That is their entire purpose.

They are there to prevent you from pulling so hard that you overcome the wimpy stops on the carburetors.
My suggestion is that another inspection be done while referencing the KAI and assure they are there and if they are, that they are properly installed.

I will find the setup section on the KAI then. AP said they were correct. Both of those brass barrels with adjustable pinch screws are there on the throttle cables, left and right.

Will need to see what exactly they stop up against at idle position.

Plane flies fantastic, plenty of oscillation warning at the root of the wings, just before the right wing dropped in a stall. Took a large amount of back pressure on the stick, felt like I was holding it all the way back, to finally get it to stall under full power, zero ability to see the horizon in front of you, felt pretty darn steep to me, and obvious sound of the engine rpms sagging downwards.

I much prefer how it performs and climbs, compared to the 172 a buddy and I rented. The RV-12 is a joy to learn in and take lessons. Just set it up good and proper abeam the tower for elevation and descent air speed.

Very, very glad I bought my own plane to train in. Now to find another CFI to finish my training.
 
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Many of today's CFIs are snowflakes. They were trained that way. Many have never landed on a runway shorter than 5000 ft. They are the product of part 141 pilot mills and their only motivation is get enough time so they can move to a regional. Find an older CFI who is actually interested in teaching and not building hours. Good luck!
 
Many of today's CFIs are snowflakes. They were trained that way. Many have never landed on a runway shorter than 5000 ft. They are the product of part 141 pilot mills and their only motivation is get enough time so they can move to a regional. Find an older CFI who is actually interested in teaching and not building hours. Good luck!

Well said!
 
Ha! I don't feel so bad, now.

I've landed on 3000 ft several times now in my friends RV-12. Granted there was some moderate headwind at KWJF those mornings, but half the runway is in repair, the other 3000 ft remaining is usable. KSZP too, a lot easier now that they cut 2/3 of a tree down at the beginning of 22.

I've got the RV-12 flash drive stick in my laptop now. Trying to find the engine portions.... all I've got for files is numbers and letters. There's no description of what is in each file. Definitely engine final adjustment related, I would think.
 
Sounds like the CFI got a little scared on that one. Also didn't read the POH for what not to do in the airplane. Doesn't sound like its your fault. If you're based near F70 I can help out once fire season dies down.
 
I don't usually post stuff like this, but ... this CFI, who effectively "fired" you, did you a big favor: Now you don't have to fire him. The CFI's job is essentially to teach you how to avoid bad situations, and how to deal with them when they actually do happen, and then ensure you learn and improve after the "learning opportunity." The fact that he ditched you when things got less than "normal" says a lot more about him that it does about you or your airplane. Teaching someone how to fly the airplane when everything is hunky-dory is the easy part.

Find a better CFI. He did you a favor. You'll be better off as a result.
 
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What did you expect the instructor to know about your plane?

I'm not a CFI, but my thoughts seem to run contrary to the others.

I don't think that instructing is inherently dangerous when conducted in a school airplane, which the CFI flies 3 times a day, 5 days a week. Teaching in someone else's aircraft is different since he doesn't know the plane, the maintainers, etc. Instructing in someone else's EXPERIMENTAL, which the student didn't build, is something different all together. I know instructors who wouldn't even consider it for primary instruction.

I don't know anything about the 12 or its engine or carb setup and the instructor probably didn't know either. But it seems to me that the owner should have known and that would have made me walk away too. How many other things do you expect an instructor to know about your particular plane?

MTCW,
 
I'm not a CFI, but my thoughts seem to run contrary to the others.

I don't think that instructing is inherently dangerous when conducted in a school airplane, which the CFI flies 3 times a day, 5 days a week. Teaching in someone else's aircraft is different since he doesn't know the plane, the maintainers, etc. Instructing in someone else's EXPERIMENTAL, which the student didn't build, is something different all together. I know instructors who wouldn't even consider it for primary instruction.

I don't know anything about the 12 or its engine or carb setup and the instructor probably didn't know either. But it seems to me that the owner should have known and that would have made me walk away too. How many other things do you expect an instructor to know about your particular plane?

MTCW,

When I instruct in someone else's plane, I read the manuals, ask questions about and inspect the plane until I understand it well enough to evaluate whether or not I will fly in it. It's called preflighting.
 
When I instruct in someone else's plane, I read the manuals, ask questions about and inspect the plane until I understand it well enough to evaluate whether or not I will fly in it. It's called preflighting.


So you would have researched the tribal knowledge on the idiosyncrasies of the RV12 carburetor setup, pulled the cowling off and verified that spring and stop were setup correctly?

I don't know what was in the CFI's head, but it sounds to me that's what this he may have done. Couldn't verify the state of the aircraft and walked away.
 
The CFI that ferried the plane uneventfully, that HAS RV-12 experience, flew uneventfully from South Carolina to Southern California, over 21 hours, with no incidence of engine stalling.

I attribute this incident to operator error, with the operator of the throttle being me. I have to own responsibility for giving it a tug a little bit too hard, when he requested throttle cut again. I know it was already against the stop, I guess the instructor wanted to make double sure it was at idle?

If anyone that's a student and new to these RV-12 planes can learn something from my experience, or lack there of, then I see this post as a useful learning tool. Take from it, what you will. Consider it a "I learned that, from other pilots mistakes" moment.
 
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We also need to be very honest here... one of a CFI's primary responsibilities as an instructor is to max out and assess a students abilities to handle critical high work load situations, and prioritize the work loads correctly.

That's what makes good student pilots into well finished pilots. Order of priorities, so I am told, is aviate, navigate, communicate.

Asking an urgent request at a critical time, does fit the lesson plan, I would think. Can't really say, I'm not a CFI.
 
That's what makes good student pilots into well finished pilots. Order of priorities, so I am told, is aviate, navigate, communicate.

Slight error here... no pilot is ever "finished" learning. Also, keep in mind most dangerous time is newly "minted" pilot with PP SEL in his/her wallet.
 
The CFI that ferried the plane uneventfully, that HAS RV-12 experience, flew uneventfully from South Carolina to Southern California, over 21 hours, with no incidence of engine stalling.

I attribute this incident to operator error, with the operator of the throttle being me. I have to own responsibility for giving it a tug a little bit too hard, when he requested throttle cut again. I know it was already against the stop, I guess the instructor wanted to make double sure it was at idle?

If anyone that's a student and new to these RV-12 planes can learn something from my experience, or lack there of, then I see this post as a useful learning tool. Take from it, what you will. Consider it a "I learned that, from other pilots mistakes" moment.

You've now included information not in the OP. I have a little more sympathy for you. The CFI was willing to fly the plane solo cross country makes the situation more curious.

However, if your hand was on the throttle, I can see how he would have given you a sense of urgency in making sure the throttle was at idle. He was busy dealing with the situation (low altitude stall and the remaining runway) and not looking at the engine to see if you are at idle.

Too bad he just walked away. Doing flight training in a home built is a dicey proposition. We rented a plane from the flight school for my daughter's training. She still flies my plane with me, but instruction is in a 172 since that is the plane in which she would do her check ride.

Good luck.
 
You didn't elaborate on what the RPM was when you cut the throttle? That made me curious if this instructor had actually flown behind a Rotax before? If he hadn't, he may not of thought about the fact that a Rotax idles faster on approach than a Lycoming or Continental.

Jim
 
You didn't elaborate on what the RPM was when you cut the throttle? That made me curious if this instructor had actually flown behind a Rotax before? If he hadn't, he may not of thought about the fact that a Rotax idles faster on approach than a Lycoming or Continental.

Jim

Judging by the sound of things, doing 60 kt across the fence, I'd say the prop was being feathered by the air speed, maybe 1800 to 1850 rpm? I didn't look, I was focused on the runway approach,, feel of the stick not quite really mushy yet, and the appearance of the runway getting waaaaay wide in my peripheral vision, applying more back stick gently, nothing abrupt movement wise, and getting the nose up gently. The plane had done all of that, it was just in the waiting game mode for it to lose energy and touch down gently. Sometimes, that seems to take a long time. This was one of those sometimes, stick didn't even move and the plane lifted off the ground kind of all by itself. Frankly, I've only had it happen maybe twice or three times as passenger in my friends RV-12 in maybe 130 hours in the right hand seat.

I think the gain in altitude with no throttle really cut my airspeed, making for loss of forward speed, and that forward speed was no longer enough to keep feathering the prop, or the engine with frictional losses in a gear box, so it stopped running. Of course, I am used to taking off at 5000 + rpm and at least 55 kts on rotation. This was as far from that as possible.
 
The thing that stands out to me is why the control responsibility was split. Whenever I say, or hear “my controls”, that means all controls, not just the stick and then splitting responsibility between stick, rudders, brakes, flaps and throttle between pilots with no briefing. Response time is faster if the same brain that has the stick knows immediately when the throttle doesn’t respond. Plus he may not have yanked hard enough to kill the engine.
 
Guys, I am a CFI, and I have instructed in the RV-12. I feel like I should give you some perspective from my side. My primary career was as an engineer and I did some freelance instructing because I enjoy flying. I have had naturals that are a joy to fly with, and returning pilots who give great satisfaction in seeing them return to something they love. I have also had students that have been very unpleasant experiences: one guy needed a bath, one guy was a ricochet rabbit that couldn’t follow the syllabus, one guy got his sport pilot license and had flown 20 hours in three years and wanted a BFR sign off. I retired in 2009 from my “real job” and linked up with a guy trying to start a flight school. After having an engine quit on one flight I began thinking that instructing was putting a lifetime of savings at risk if a serious incident occurred, so I decided to only do IPCs and BFRs for pilots I know and trust. CFIs aren’t necessarily snowflakes. Guys like me are worried about personal liability. Young guys probably have an eye on the airlines and know a serious incident could ruin their chances. It’s a litigious world, and the CFI has a high profile for legal risk.
 
I began thinking that instructing was putting a lifetime of savings at risk if a serious incident occurred, ....
.
+1. Yep. After not one, but two, post-solo students deliberately went and did things I had told them not to do, I stopped training primary students. I’m too old to re-earn my (and my wife’s) retirement savings.
 
+1. Yep. After not one, but two, post-solo students deliberately went and did things I had told them not to do, I stopped training primary students. I’m too old to re-earn my (and my wife’s) retirement savings.

Can't blame you... Too many lawyers looking to cash-up and too many people doing stupid things or pushing envelop and then looking for deep pockets.

I would not want to be an aircraft mechanic or inspector putting my signature in a logbook that can be entered as evidence in a court proceeding.

So, that brings me to the E-LSA RV-12 where owner (doesn’t have to be builder) can sign for Annual Condition Inspection after completing 16-hour training course. I’m betting the legal community would have a field day with that one…
 
No Yanking

I was taught early on that nothing in an airplane is "pulled" or "yanked." Controls are "moved" or "pressure is applied." Instruments are "adjusted." Switches are "selected." Brakes are "applied" - not "stepped on" or "stomped."

You'll soon attain rapport with the 12 and it will be the sweetest landing plane you will ever fly. You will soon get to the point of flaring for the landing (right at the numbers), adding just a bit of throttle, and flying in ground effect about a foot off the runway for as long as you want, then going around for another or retarding the throttle to land perfectly in place for your turnoff.
 
I had two yanked control incidents. The first was when I took an aerobatic course in a T-34. It was my first loop and not knowing any better I yanked the stick. The only time I have ever experienced Grey pout.

Fast forward 5 years when I had a Yak-52 and was giving an ultralight pilot a ride. Same thing. I demonstrated a loop and let him try. He took us to 7Gs! I have since learned to handle things gently!😜
 
I had two yanked control incidents. The first was when I took an aerobatic course in a T-34. It was my first loop and not knowing any better I yanked the stick. The only time I have ever experienced Grey pout.

Fast forward 5 years when I had a Yak-52 and was giving an ultralight pilot a ride. Same thing. I demonstrated a loop and let him try. He took us to 7Gs! I have since learned to handle things gently!��

Very early in my start here at VAF, when I was green as a fresh cow pie to aviation, I went for a ride in my buddies RV-12. It had bicycle grips on the joy stick. I've spent a lot of time mountain biking over rough terrain, losing your grip and a hand coming off the bars was recipe for a bad accident, so a "death grip" man handling touch was the standard of force applied.

So, in retrospect, when my friend turned the controls over to me, I grabbed a handful of grip and figured pushing 1320 pounds around would be worse than a 29 # mountain bike.

Boy, was I wrong!

I labeled the controls on the RV-12 as "touchy" or twitchy, and didn't have my flak jacket on when the responses flew in!

At cruise speed and altitude, it's got control like a gameboy stick, finger tip action... when landing and things get a little mushy, the range of motion change is exponential. It all depends how fast you are flying. The RV-12, now that I bought one, should best be labeled as "highly responsive".

My instructor absolutely is blown away how sporty my RV-12 flies and lands. He wants to go to longer runways to practice landings at KVNY! I think landing at KVNY is in my future, not looking at all forward to all of the local jet traffic that lands there.
 
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How often do CFIs get sued in reality? Is it really an issue?

The OP made a mistake but an engine quitting at flare height on an adequate length runway is not the end of the world. You figure out what happened, discuss it, make any required changes to the airplane or procedures, make sure everyone understands what mistake was made (you are a student after all) and carry on. It wasn’t like you did something massively reckless. You just did what you thought he told you. Sounds like a snowflake to me.

Certainly a cfi has to know the airplane he is flying, no question about that.
 
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