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A Pre buy or not?

munbro01

Member
Pre buy, did you or not? Pretty is sweet but sometimes it turns bitter quickly. Been at this nearly 50 years, even factory New has things that get overlooked from a mechanics view. Here’s a few things I’ve seen
on “post purchase inspections “.
1. Brakes, are they spongy? Could be more than just needing fluid?
2. Intake air filter, is it clean? If not, could turn into mud with a little rain?
3. Remove spinner, check for loose or broken prop bolts? Yes I’ve found them bad.
4. Engine does not make static or TO RPM. Propeller or fuel system problems?
5. Sloppy flight controls? Check for worn or loose attach points.
6. Flight control adjustment history, especially wing heavy and pitch corrections.
7. Extensive records review? Is it sparsely documented? Complete and current?
These are just a few examples. Sure this adds to the cost, if you see something abnormal. It’s guaranteed there’s always more. Be diligent, Remember Safety come in Cans, We All Can. Enjoy your new pride and joy.
 
People buy airplanes without inspecting them? Wow. I guess people play russian roulette too. There have been some pretty entertaining things shown here on VAF. My favorite was the builders who couldn't get the spar to fit into the 4 or 6 fuselage (forgot which) so they got out the handy angle grinder and cut a neat 1/4" deep notch, complete with square corner, out of the bottom of the inboard spar cap! The airplane was flown like that for several 100 hrs if I recall. The new owners saw enough other abominations that they took the wings off and found this. Brave souls dismantled the wing and put in a new spar. Not like they had a choice. While a prebuy might not have found that, it likely would have found enough other things to frighten away a buyer so they would have been spared.
 
i have bought a couple of airplanes without a pre buy. worked out well for both, however, I am an A&P IA so quick glance will give me a pretty good idea of what I need to know. I looked at a 150 and the first thing I noticed was a bit of mold in the headliner, not uncommon here in florida, but that sends up a big flag. I was amazed when I pulled back the carpet a bit and saw no corrosion on the lower strut attach. didn't buy it because of overall condition. for the most part a quick look in the tail cone and a borescope will tell the biggest information that I am looking for. a pre buy will not give you a great idea of what the inside of the engine holds, but there really are only two things that will make me run , structural damage and corrosion. the rest are price reduction issues.

now, with an experimental i would never buy one without a good look inside. it might not rises to the level of a condition inspection, but a good look at some critical areas will tell alot about the construction level of the aircraft.
 
Prebuy

Yes, yes I do recommend a prebuy on every aircraft one is considering.

While searching for an airworthy RV-7 to buy last year I completed FIVE prebuy looks. The fifth uncovered several things that had to be addressed, but they were manageable and the price of the plane reflected its actual condition.

I bought the plane and fixed a long overdue AD that hadn't been complied with, cleaned and updated some items, sent in the mags for a 500 hour inspection and documented everything clearly.

At my first annual condition inspection an A&P and I were not surprised by anything unusual or too exciting.

Please don't take any offense, if you are a builder selling your plane. The fact is that a builder who has his repairman's certificate for that plane may have missed something. If no one else ever looks at the plane it gets missed every year during the annual condition inspection. Also, as builders lose interest and decide they need to sell their baby it can get neglected for the next few years until they get up the nerve to actually put it on the market.

Vic Syracuse has said and published a great amount of information on this subject. Here's a few things I found to be true from conducting prebuy's on RVs as well as certified aircraft with an A&P helping me:

1. Save a lot of time, money and frustration for you as the potential buyer and the seller by asking for a complete digital copy of the log books, yes all of them, the airframe, engine and propeller. Go through them carefully or have your A&P that will be doing the condition inspections in the future go through them. It is worth paying for this service.

a. Verify all data is present to determine the date of manufacture for the engine, serial numbers for magnetos, prop hubs, blades, etc so an Airworthiness Directive and Service Instruction search can be performed.

b. Knowledge is key to making an educated offer. Base your assessment of the aircraft's value on true condition of the aircraft. If it needs a 500 hour magneto inspection or AD performed, consider the cost to have this completed.

c. Look for documentation of maintenance on things that are required to be done. If the seller says the mags were inspected at 500 hours, or a prop reseal, there should be a record of it, even if he did it himself. Better if critical maintenance items were performed by a reputable shop with receipts and official logbook entries to match.

d. Every applicable Vans Service Bulletin should be addressed in the logs. Recurring inspections called for by service bulletins recommending yearly checks for known issues should be recorded at every condition inspection. Asking for specifics and for pictures of those areas highlighted by Vans Service bulletins is due diligence.

2. If the logs check out digitally its time to ask for some more detailed pictures. Chances are this sweet looking RV is half way across the country and depending on the responsiveness of the seller and his preparedness to sell his plane, a digital "preliminary prebuy" can be done in a morning if all things are squared away. Many sellers already have detailed pictures of every angle taken at the last condition inspection when they had all the panels off and everything was clean because they were already thinking that they might sell their baby someday soon.

3. If the seller is unresponsive or sends pictures that are clearly from 10 years ago (it happens) then a decision will need to be made whether to pursue the purchase or not. Ask the seller if they would be willing to fly their plane at your expense to an A&P of your choice an hour away for a prebuy look. Their response will give you a sense of how confident they are that it would pass a prebuy without a lot of costly fixes.

4. Conditional offer. Before the seller actually flies the plane to the A&P of your choice it may be wise to secure the first right of refusal by making an official offer. AOPA has formated conditional agreements that I've modified for my use. A conditional offer can't prevent the seller from allowing someone else to swoop in and buy the plane out from under you, but it helps communicate your intent to buy as long as everything is as portrayed. Confirmation of condition by an A&P during a prebuy look is how you can be sure the aircraft is what was advertised.

5. I like to look at things I'm buying in person, even if I bring it to an expert to evaluate. This is where I might bring a down payment in cash to make an official purchase agreement with the seller, look at the aircraft and logs in person and make a final determination.

I suppose I'm cheap and want to avoid over paying for things, so I look closely before buying. Some people don't mind buying a pretty plane and then having a mechanic spend a few weeks going through it to fix and upgrade things. In the end, we are all going to pay before we buy or after, it is just a matter of time.
 
I think you already know the answer. Most likely you are just trying to figure out if others would do what you sort of want to do, which is just wing it (no pun intended), buy the plane and hope for the best. Just a few thoughts for you. No Pre-buy is perfect. No one, not even Vic :D is going to catch every single thing on a pre-buy that is wrong or could cause problems in the future. But and this is a huge but ( pun intended this time :D) you will get experience on your side and could possibly catch something that may save your and your passenger's lives. 1 missing or loose bolt could lead to other things moving which can come loose and so on.

Just do yourself a favor and get it inspected by someone that knows RVs. Even this is an important point. There has been many examples / stories told here on VAF about folks paying an A&P to do a pre-buy and found several things wrong months later after they got to know their airplane or someone else found it during an annual conditional inspection. My point is that you're spending thousands of dollars of your hard earned cash on something that you hope to enjoy, why not spend a few hundred dollars and let someone else give it a look over? You may even be able to negotiate some of the recommended fixes in to the purchase price.

One other point; as a seller, i would feel so much better and sleep better knowing that it was checked over by someone else. I just sold an RV10 that was inspected by Vic. Vic gave us a list of items to fix which we missed when going through it ourselves. After fixing those, the new owner appreciated it and is now flying the paint off the plane. BTW, i've become great friends with the new owner knowing in my heart that we did the right thing and didn't mis-represent the aircraft that we were selling.

So in short, YES :rolleyes:
 
It depends

Well, it depends. If the Prebuy is a good one, then yes. If the Prebuy is sloppy, then no. However some pre-buys are unrealistic, pointing out things that are just stupid. I’ve seen my share of sellers get ticked off from a Prebuy that was too picky. What is too picky? You decide.

I’ve bought several planes over the years sight unseen and sometimes I had regrets but never got taken too bad. As an A&P and a Sheetmetal guy, never seen anything I couldn’t fix (except corrosion, I hate corrosion, I’ve inhaled enough DC-9 - L1011 corrosion for a lifetime).

If you pay others to fix your stuff, get a pre-buy. If you want to roll the dice and buy an experimental airplane without a Prebuy, well, be prepared for an education. Remember, it’s all a journey. Getting screwed cause you didn’t get a Prebuy can be a fun experience because you will get to learn lot of stuff and get to see a lot of new things and having a great story to pass along to the next generation. That’s my positive take. Good luck.
 
I do a lot of pre buy inspections. No one can catch everything, but an experienced eye knows what to look for, and inspecting the aircraft and logs is just part of the puzzle. Looking at the FAA files on registration and airworthiness is also part. And finally, talking to the owner or previous owners completes the trifecta. If the aircraft is in good condition and the price is right, then the pre buy can be peace of mind or an unneeded expense. However, if the pre buy finds items of a costly to repair or airworthy nature, it can be money well spent! ( what is your life worth?). I have inspected over 300 aircraft for certificates of airworthiness, while the vast majority are well built and a source of pride to the builder, there are those that would curl the hair on your neck! The pre buy is usually cheaper than the round trip airline fare!

Regards,

Gary
DAR - FSDO and MIDO
 
Sometimes

Great advice. The tough thing is a good plane has sold before you get to step 2;).

If you know how to do your own prebuy get to the plane that's for sale as quickly as you can with your tools and spend the time in person, going over the logs, check all the ADs, SBs, build quality and determine what you're willing to fix and what needs to be negotiated or fixed prior to purchase.

Check out Vic's book on prebuys if you'd like to take a whack at doing it yourself. A swift move to determine airworthiness and a sizeable down payment can secure the best aircraft quickly. I still believe that the best ones never hit the market. Someone snaps them up before they are really even for sale. That's what I did. No shame.

Honestly, what I've found is that many builders lose the nerve to sell their plane when they see someone going through it without emotion checking everything carefully.

This happened during one of my five prebuy looks. The builder just decided it was worth more than market value and decided not to sell.

Best of luck! You might get lucky and buy a good one sight unseen. They are out there.
 
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Check out Vic's book on prebuys if you'd like to take a whack at doing it yourself.

Hi FlyinTiger...my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. No way am I encouraging not getting a prebuy. And no way I would want to do a prebuy on my own since I'm not a builder (I wish I had the skills and patience). :D

Since the market is strong right now, I was pointing out the difficulty in taking your time to truly check out a plane before you get to the point in making an offer. Best advice I got from Vic was to try to get the seller to give first right of refusal and then that buys time to check the plane out. Not all sellers will do this though.
 
I would not recommend purchasing one without a prebuy. At least get the book and read it and give it to your inspector.

Vic
 
Pre-buy vs Conditional

So along the lines of this thread…. If I’m looking at a plane that has just had a fresh conditional completed, assuming I can talk to the guy who did the inspection, do you think a pre-buy is still advisable? I’m not sure what the differences are between a pre-buy and a conditional

Thanks

Randy
 
So along the lines of this thread…. If I’m looking at a plane that has just had a fresh conditional completed, assuming I can talk to the guy who did the inspection, do you think a pre-buy is still advisable? I’m not sure what the differences are between a pre-buy and a conditional

Thanks

Randy

A lot of the issues that are discovered during pre-purchase inspections are issues that were present when the last condition inspection (by the way, they are condition inspections, not conditional inspections. There is nothing conditional on whether it needs to be done or not ) was done (sometimes the issue has been present for every condition inspection that’s ever been done ) so a recent one being done doesn’t mean much, unless you know a lot about the person that did the inspection.
Are they highly experienced with RVs? Do they have experience with that particular model? Do they have any personal association with the seller?

In my opinion, a pre-purchase inspection is well advised, regardless of when the last inspection was done.
 
I am probably one of the few who bought an E-AB aircraft without a pre-buy. But my situation was kind of unique. I was fortunate to purchase it from a friend, who was also a student of mine, and have flown the plane and known it well for many years. So I guess you could say it was the world's longest pre-buy, in a way...

I'd normally not even think about buying an aircraft of any kind without a pre-purchase inspection by a mechanic knowledgeable about that specific model, especially at today's crazy asking prices. I'm one of those guys who pays others to do the maintenance. :)

--Ron
 
Pre buy

Unless you are familiar with Airplane construction and RV’s in general a pre buy is money well spent . This was caught on a pre buy …. The builder never removed the blue plastic before he assembled the structure….How can you repair this !
 

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