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Swapping audio panel, experimental and certiifed

tmillican

Active Member
I'm getting my Baron ready to sell and will be keeping my RV.
The Baron has a PS PMA-8000BT audio panel, whereas the RV has a Garmin GMA-340.
They are plug and play, so I was thinking I'll swap them out to keep the PS audio panel in my RV as I like the bluetooth functionality.

I know putting it in the RV is something I can do myself, and just get my friendly avionics guy to sign off the swap for the Baron.

But now I'm wondering....the only documentation I have for the GMA-340 which is currently in my RV is the "pilot's guide," no yellow tag.
So what would I have to do in order to make the Garmin Audio Panel legal to put into the Baron?

Thanks,
Troy
 
More than likely, once it's in the Baron, nobody will ever look for a yellow tag for it. If you want to do it "by the book", it will likely be cheaper to buy a second PS audio panel, and sell the GMA.
 
Not a direct answer to your question, FAR Chapter 43 does state that an owner/pilot and perform certain maintenance items. One of them is change out radio equipment if it can be accomplished from the front of the panel...or something like that.
 
Shop around and have your audio panel bench tested. I'm not sure what this would cost but I would call around first.
 
Yellow tags mean jack under the fars. it's up to the A&P siginging the book to decide if it's a serviceable unit. Swap it out have an A&P sign the book "removed audio panel model xxx s/n xxx, installed audio panel model yyy s/n yyy in exaisting rack, no change to weight and balance." Done deal.

Bob burns
 
You can do it as long as the aircraft is used under 14 CFR Part 91

-----Shameless copy and paste from FAA documents below-----

Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/43.3

===========================

First, you need to understand that authorized preventive maintenance cannot involve complex assembly operations.

Second, you should carefully review 14 CFR Part 43, Appendix A, Subpart C (Preventive Maintenance), https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/appendix-A_to_part_43 which provides a list of the authorized preventive maintenance work that an owner pilot may perform.
This includes - (31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

Third, you should conduct a self-analysis as to whether you have the ability to perform the work satisfactorily and safely.

Fourth, if you do any of the preventive maintenance authorized in 14 CFR Part 43, you will need to make an entry in the appropriate logbook or record system in order to document the work done. The entry must include the following information:? A description of the work performed, or references to data that are acceptable to the Administrator.? The date of completion.? The signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person performing the work. Note that the signature constitutes approval for return to service only for work performed.

Cheers, David
RV-6A A&P
 
Yellow tags mean jack under the fars. it's up to the A&P siginging the book to decide if it's a serviceable unit. Swap it out have an A&P sign the book "removed audio panel model xxx s/n xxx, installed audio panel model yyy s/n yyy in exaisting rack, no change to weight and balance." Done deal.

Bob burns

Parts installed in aircraft must be "approved", this basically means it must have the appropriate paperwork such as 8130 or yellow tag. An A&P does not have the capability to issue either so you can figure out the rest.

So although a pilot may be able to swap out a unit of the same model with an 'approved' part, he cannot replace a part with a different part of unknown origin and approve the aircraft for return to service legally.

PS: yellow tags are an approved legal document used to approve parts for return to service the same as an 8130.
 
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Parts installed in aircraft must be "approved", this basically means it must have the appropriate paperwork such as 8130 or yellow tag. An A&P does not have the capability to issue either so you can figure out the rest.

So although a pilot may be able to swap out a unit of the same model with an 'approved' part, he cannot replace a part with a different part of unknown origin and approve the aircraft for return to service legally.

PS: yellow tags are an approved legal document used to approve parts for return to service the same as an 8130.

not true walt. first off, there is no legal definition of "yellow tag" in the fars or part 43. an 8130 is a faa airworthness release and can only be issued by a repair station. a yellow tag im most cases does not meet the requirements of the fars and proves nothing under part 43.

as you well know to, install a part in a standard aircraft requires two things, that the part is air-worthy and that the installation was done using either approved or acceptable data, depending of if its a major or minor alteration. if the audio panel has never been opened up, then the 8130 that shipped with the unit is still a valid 8130. that covers the approval of the part, the approval of the install, since it is a minor alteration even if the tray has to be changed is up to the installing A&P to approve.

just because the unit was taken out of one aircraft and slid into another does not require a new 8130 if the paper trail is know. its about maintenance, or repair that needs a new 8130. there is nothing that says, "as soon as its installed the 8130 is not valid if its slid in another aircraft"

the airlines do it all the time, they swap radios from aircraft to aircraft with a simple log book entry, and its legal because they have the paper trail of the part.

so, if the OP has the 8130 shipped with the unit, or an 8130 issued the last time it was opened up, then its a simple swap with a log book entry and is entirely legal.
 
But now I'm wondering....the only documentation I have for the GMA-340 which is currently in my RV is the "pilot's guide," no yellow tag.
So what would I have to do in order to make the Garmin Audio Panel legal to put into the Baron?

Thanks,
Troy

The above states the OP has no paperwork for the unit.

not true walt. first off, there is no legal definition of "yellow tag" in the fars or part 43. an 8130 is a faa airworthness release and can only be issued by a repair station. a yellow tag im most cases does not meet the requirements of the fars and proves nothing under part 43.

as you well know to, install a part in a standard aircraft requires two things, that the part is air-worthy and that the installation was done using either approved or acceptable data, depending of if its a major or minor alteration. if the audio panel has never been opened up, then the 8130 that shipped with the unit is still a valid 8130. that covers the approval of the part, the approval of the install, since it is a minor alteration even if the tray has to be changed is up to the installing A&P to approve.

just because the unit was taken out of one aircraft and slid into another does not require a new 8130 if the paper trail is know. its about maintenance, or repair that needs a new 8130. there is nothing that says, "as soon as its installed the 8130 is not valid if its slid in another aircraft"

the airlines do it all the time, they swap radios from aircraft to aircraft with a simple log book entry, and its legal because they have the paper trail of the part.

so, if the OP has the 8130 shipped with the unit, or an 8130 issued the last time it was opened up, then its a simple swap with a log book entry and is entirely legal.

Just as an FYI, I worked the airline in both Mntc and QA and know the paperwork procedures pretty well.
I also own/operate an FAA repair station so I know that side of the business as well.

Your statements pretty much prove my point, there has to be a paper trail and a serviceable parts tag for the part to be 'approved' for installation in a certified aircraft. The airline has specific instructions in the GPM to accomplish "borrowing" parts from other aircraft, you can't just pull em and swap them without following the procedure and doing the paperwork (review logs, history etc.) and then tag the unit with a serviceable parts tag which then goes into the aircraft records..

The 'yellow tag', or any other document used to approve a part for RTS in called out in the operators GPM or RS manual. In my own RS manual I can use either a yellow tag, a standard 8130, or a custom made 8130 I developed, all are approved for use by my RS manual. 8130's are generally used and are required for EASA type operations (which is why they came about), but many folks, like myself, find it quicker and easier to use the good ole yellow tag and it is an FAA approved document even though you can't find the definition in the CFR's.
(see AC 20-62E for additional info on documents that may be used to approve parts for service)

Also, once a unit is installed in an aircraft you can no longer use the original 8130 as it's approval, it's invalid at that point and the unit cannot be transferred to another aircraft without new approved paperwork. You can re-install it in the same aircraft without new paperwork but not in a different aircraft.
 
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dont get me wrong walt, your expertise is well established. but i have never found any FAA document that states once installed the 8130 is invalid. but then the FAA never makes any thing easy to find. If you have an FAA document reference for that I would love to read it. as i assume you well know, there is a lot of false information, even from the FAA floating around that keeps going on and on just because it has been passed around. look at the 337 mess thats out there.
 
n82rb

note to self.... probably should not argue with Walt.
He has been there done that.....
To the original poster... Get it bench checked. Easy. Will come with a tag with a pretty color.
 
dont get me wrong walt, your expertise is well established. but i have never found any FAA document that states once installed the 8130 is invalid. but then the FAA never makes any thing easy to find. If you have an FAA document reference for that I would love to read it. as i assume you well know, there is a lot of false information, even from the FAA floating around that keeps going on and on just because it has been passed around. look at the 337 mess thats out there.

Once a part is used/installed in an aircraft and you remove it, it now becomes a 'used' part, common sense would dictate that you can't pull a unit out of aircraft, call it serviceable using the previous dated paperwork for it. If that was the case then I could theoretically remove any part and pass it off as 'serviceable' if I had the old paperwork for it.

For example I still have the paperwork/8130 that came with my 5 year old Garmin 650, could I remove it and sell it as a "serviceable" part based on a 5 year old document? NO. Would the person installing it in a certified aircraft accept that as a new/serviceable unit just because I provided that paperwork, I hope not.

AC 20-62E pretty well spells out part serviceability reqmnts.
 
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For example I still have the paperwork/8130 that came with my 5 year old Garmin 650, could I remove it and sell it as a "serviceable" part based on a 5 year old document? NO. Would the person installing it in a certified aircraft accept that as a new/serviceable unit just because I provided that paperwork, I hope not.

AC 20-62E pretty well spells out part serviceability reqmnts.

I am curious here, as I have no idea: whether it is a good practice or ethical is different than whether it?s legal. What regulation requires a new yellow tag when removed from one airplane in serviceable condition and placed into another? I have no dog in this fight but when telling someone what they can and cannot do, legally, with their own aircraft, I would think reference to regulation is paramount. What determines that it is legal to install? Yellow tag is simply one option amount many/few/endless - I don?t know....
 
I am curious here, as I have no idea: whether it is a good practice or ethical is different than whether it’s legal. What regulation requires a new yellow tag when removed from one airplane in serviceable condition and placed into another? I have no dog in this fight but when telling someone what they can and cannot do, legally, with their own aircraft, I would think reference to regulation is paramount. What determines that it is legal to install? Yellow tag is simply one option amount many/few/endless - I don’t know....

I don't really have time or inclination to do a course on CFR's, but no mechanic can install unapproved parts on a certified aircraft and return it to service. In GA there is no process to approve a part taken from another aircraft so it must be approved by an authorized source.

Serviceability of a part means every function/input/output/etc. was tested. So as an example, just because my GTN650 worked fine in my aircraft, that doesn't mean it will work in your aircraft as I only about half of the input/output capability of the unit. Whose to say I didn't burn up all the other inputs/outputs when I installed it.
 
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People buy used parts all the time from wentworth salvage. The installing A&P may determine airworthiness prior to installing the part. I see this no different.
 
Thanks to Walt and everyone for chiming in.
I definitely appreciate the new to me info about being able to remove/replace panel mounted radios as an owner/operator.
I am checking on where to get a bench test and if that is a reasonable process/price, I will swap them and make a logbook entry.

Troy
 
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