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What makes an RV junk?

Earl Findlay

Active Member
I?m seriously pondering an RV9 or RV9A. I have heard from many in the know not to buy a ?junk? airplane. So, what makes an airplane junk? Is it incorrect to assume that if something like an RV9, coming pre-punched, is flying and has an accrued a few hundred hours that it isn?t ?junk?? Seems to me like the pre punched airplanes remove a lot of the junk factor.

Please educate me on what I do not know!!

Earl
 
Bad builder technique. There are unfortunately some people who shouldn't be allowed near a rivet gun. Search for posts from Vic Syracuse and Walt Aronow for some examples of high quality matched hole kits that have been turned into junk by some very bad builders.
 
Is it incorrect to assume that if something like an RV9, coming pre-punched, is flying and has an accrued a few hundred hours that it isn?t ?junk?? Seems to me like the pre punched airplanes remove a lot of the junk factor.

Please educate me on what I do not know!!

Earl

Absolutely not correct. Most of us have seen RVs that are flying, even the RV9 kind, that were absolutely "junk" and not airworthy. Fundamentally, you pretty much know one when you see it.
 
Walk the line

Before and as i was building I spent a lot of time walking the rows of homebuilt camping rvs at oshkosh. There are rows and rows, the first few years i just could not believe the numbers. I took tons of pics and looked at everything from rivet quality, rudder seems, wheel pants, fiberglass work, canopy work. Talked to a few builders and learned more each year.
Do the same and you will learn a lot and see a lot. When you educate yourself still get a pro to inspect as there are some hidden things that would not be noticeable to rookie. There are some horrible builds out there and lots that just need a bit of love...and some absolute beauties. Good luck
 
Yes, true, but junk has it?s value.
Vans has actually calculated an allowed amount of junk to exist and still have an airworthy aircraft.
It?s call the Roebling factor based on Roebling bridge building slush factor to cover the unknown, such as his casement catching on fire.
Van probably use the ?3 stooges ? multiplyer figuring 33% of builders are nuckleheads and have yet to learn ?righty tighty lefty loosy? theorems, so only 1/3 of the rivets need to be actually gripping.
But, because 1/3 of DARs are also nuckleheads and will certify anything with a prop attach, junk exists.
So, the formulae to determine price is inspect 10 rivets in each wing, 10 in the fuselage, and 10 random.
Figure the ratio and multiply the asking price to get the Starting point of price negotiation.
You?re welcome.

R
 
....so only 1/3 of the rivets need to be actually gripping.....

Wouldn't rely on that.

Look closely. If any rivets in a visible row are bad, figure that the ones you can't see are worse, perhaps much worse -- and skip that airplane.

Dave
 
Pre-Buy Inspection

Find a plane you like, then hire a QUALIFIED individual to do a proper pre-buy inspection on it. Best money you will ever spend. Especially if they advise you not to buy the plane..... :rolleyes:

You can use this wonderful forum to locate that qualified individual.
 
Two things would render an aircraft “junk” in my book - poor riveting, and grooves or cuts in critical structural components. The truth is, wiring and plumbing can be fixed, as can cosmetics (fiberglass, etc.). If you got sound structure, you can fix the plane with sufficient time and money (maybe lots of both). But poor structural construction pretty much destroys an airplane.
 
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I took a picture at OSH of a lap seam of about 10 rivets. From it you can see that the exposed edge was hastily cut and was never run on the scotch brite wheel. You can see individual cut marks, even serrations from the blade. There are bits of burs and grit stuck in the paint and a dab of bondo type paste that was never smoothed out or sanded. Two rivets had smilies. Ten minutes of extra care would have made a world of difference.
So what junk was this on?

It was on the rear nacelle of the left engine of the $1.4 million dollar brand new Special Edition Baron that Beech displayed front and center at their OSH pavilion and that hickey shown bright two feet from where eager Beech salesmen were proudly having folks ooh and aah as they lined up dozens deep to peer inside.
 
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What is a bad rivet .

How do you define a bad flush rivet ? Many pics here display excellent results , the result of very sharp dimpling, tight hole fit and square approach from the set tool. A lot of rivets don?t appear to be Lindy Winners, but are structurally 100%.
So, short of smilies and tilted factory heads, how would you make the call ?
 
How do you define a bad flush rivet ? Many pics here display excellent results , the result of very sharp dimpling, tight hole fit and square approach from the set tool. A lot of rivets don’t appear to be Lindy Winners, but are structurally 100%.
So, short of smilies and tilted factory heads, how would you make the call ?

I'm proud of most of my riveting - I sure drilled out enough that I didn't like. I think there is some definite condescension on the part of some folks on this forum about the quality of riveting. And I also think that there are cosmetic considerations as well as structural. While building, I figured out pretty quickly that sometimes it's better and safer to accept a less than perfect cosmetic result - especially if the rivets in a given row or assembly are mostly good.

Here is a direct quote from Van's own section on riveting - taken from the Alcoa Aluminum Rivet Book (admittedly taken out of context - read ALL of section 5 before taking this to heart):

"The standards to which driven rivets should conform are frequently uncertain. In addition to dimensions and perfection of shape, inspection is concerned with whether the drive head is coaxial with the shank (not "clinched") and whether there is excessive cracking of the heads. It has been determined that even badly cracked heads are satisfactory from the standpoint of static strength, fatigue strength and resistance to corrosion. (Poorly set and cracked) rivet heads were tested in tension to determine how well formed a head has to be in order to develop full strength. The tensile strengths of all the rivets were within five percent of the strongest. The test indicated that minor deviations from the theoretically desired shape of head are not cause for concern or replacement. The second rivet that is driven in any one hole [is] likely to be more defective than the first because the hole is enlarged and [the] rivet will be more likely to buckle and form an imperfect head. Tests have shown that very small rivet heads are sufficient to develop the strength of the rivet shank, even when the rivets are subject to a straight tensile pull....where a large head is not needed for appearance, smaller sizes of drive head should be used to decrease the required driving pressures."
 
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Thankyou Turner !

This clarification covers lots of anxiety . I was comfortable with less than 1.5 x shank diameter shop heads in shear, but did know about the tensile evaluation.
It appears that VAN and other authorities leave factory head cosmetics to the ?eye of the beholder?.
 
I think your question is not precise enough to get a good answer. I put my junk next to the street and most of the time it's picked up before the trash truck shows up. So it seems my junk is somebody's treasure. Same applies here.

I think there are 3 categories you can break this into which make some sense:

Safety:

I have never heard of a prepunched RV causing bodily injury because of bad riveting. Even more so on a quick build kit where most important rivets are already done by Vans. Sometimes when you read this side people really obsess about rivets. Not quite sure why as the data doesn't reflect a relationship between safety and rivets at all.

From a safety perspective you should look at the engine and everything that's attached to it (e.g. fuel system). That's what kills people at least in the statistics I have seen. Even little things like silicon sealant in fuel system can kill.

So the engine and it's systems will define what's junk from a safety perspective in my book.

Maintenance:

That's a much longer list. E.g. bad workmanship can cause cracks. Poor rivets might get to a point where they need to be replaced. Bolts might not be properly tightened etc... . Those things will all be visible in routine maintenance so as more of those you have as more time you will spend on the ground fixing things.

How much of that "junk" you are willing to deal with depends a lot on how much flying vs. working vs. money you have.

Aesthetics:

Your opinion is as good as mine.

Oliver
 
One man?s junk: another?s treasure

Park your junk next to an old typical rental or trainer and suddenly your Vans junk shines like a diamond. Fly them and you will choose the junk over a worn out rental.

In the Air Force I once parked next to a B-52 which had just landed from a low level flight. Several airmen were using grease pencils to circle the popped rivets from that one flight. A 1958/62 era jet!
 
Junk

This might win the prize for “Junk RV” that actually flew.

1001074cw0.jpg
 
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Workmanship

This might win the prize for ?Junk RV? that actually flew.

1001074cw0.jpg

Cosmetically doesn?t look that good
But structurally doesn?t appear to be
Affected? Perfect no, could it cross the
Atlantic without the left side of the
Cowling comping off, probably.
 
I?ve found that when the workmanship suffers so does the rest of the build and rigging quality.
To me there is no place for ?that?s good enough? with an airplane.
I?ve seen some builds that there is no way I?d fly in it.
Guess I?m just picky, just remember it?s your life when your flying something.
 
As mentioned, if you know what you are looking for, you can inspect the critical systems and structures. An RV that is not ?well crafted? may still be very airworthy. I know of many.
 
The one thing that makes up how we humans decide on what's good enough or not about anything in life are the EYES!! We are very visual creatures and that alone makes us pre judge a lot of things in life.
Imagine how many A/C out there much older and worked harder than our Vans that are flying daily with a zillion imperfect rivets etc? LOTS!!
A good friend of mine once said ...."stop trying to make it visually safe and enjoy flying it" ....been doing that ever since with a few rivets that smile back at me everytime I polish my plane and the working rivets I have get cleaned and left alone, gets thru it's annual inspection every time by a well know RV fixer:)

I've flown little Cessna's to Airbuses that looked tired, I'm still here:)
 
I think some may have misunderstood my comments above. I am not so much looking for every single rivet to be perfect. I am very satisfied with a number of bad rivets (even quite a few) in an airplane if they are spaced out. My comments were about airframes I have seen where almost every rivet was underset...or every rivet was smashed beyond recognition. Those airframes need to be completely disassembled in order to be made anything resembling acceptable. That’s my definition of a junk airframe.

And as I said - you can replace poorly installed systems - but the bones are the bones...
 
Even if you find the most perfect RV on the planet, it will take owning it, flying it and maintaining it for a few years until you make it just the way you want it to be. If you are not going to maintain it yourself, then you will have a relationship with an A&P, so his opinion might alter what the perfect ignition system, propellor and avionics are the right set up.

As others have said, the line up at Oshkosh is a gold mine of information and a great place to get an idea of what you are looking for.
 
I took a picture at OSH of a lap seam of about 10 rivets. From it you can see that the exposed edge was hastily cut and was never run on the scotch brite wheel. You can see individual cut marks, even serrations from the blade. There are bits of burs and grit stuck in the paint and a dab of bondo type paste that was never smoothed out or sanded. Two rivets had smilies. Ten minutes of extra care would have made a world of difference.
So what junk was this on?

It was on the rear nacelle of the left engine of the $1.4 million dollar brand new Special Edition Baron that Beech displayed front and center at their OSH pavilion and that hickey shown bright two feet from where eager Beech salesmen were proudly having folks ooh and aah as they lined up dozens deep to peer inside.

About 30 odd years ago I remember reading and article about someone that made a template they could lay on top of a Baron wing to see if the airfoil was correctly shaped. They carried it around to several airports and checked all the Barons they could find. It was surprising how few of them measured up.
 
It's a real point of pride to have properly set rivets, even if shoddy workmanship can still provide nearly the same strength. As others have said, if there's consistency here in nice uniform rows of properly set shop heads, the attention to detail is probably quite good elsewhere.

I think a big gotcha, even on the Quik Build kits, can be inadequate (or nonexistent!) edge distance on attachment holes for the horizontal stab. A hyper-critical look at these with a flashlight and mirror should be part of any pre-buy inspection.
 
I'd be impressed with an RV with 25,000 hours on it. That's on its 13th engine assuming you replaced/overhauled at 2000 hours.
 
I think some may have misunderstood my comments above. I am not so much looking for every single rivet to be perfect. I am very satisfied with a number of bad rivets (even quite a few) in an airplane if they are spaced out. My comments were about airframes I have seen where almost every rivet was underset...or every rivet was smashed beyond recognition. Those airframes need to be completely disassembled in order to be made anything resembling acceptable. That?s my definition of a junk airframe.

And as I said - you can replace poorly installed systems - but the bones are the bones...

As Paul says, if the airframe is bad, it is easier to build new than to fix. Why tear something apart only to have to rebuild it. Sometimes the airframe is poor with bad systems. Here again it is easier to start new airframe instead of redoing part of the airframe and all the systems.

My career in aerospace was to do it right the first time. Rework was lost profit.
 
Cosmetically doesn?t look that good
But structurally doesn?t appear to be
Affected? Perfect no, could it cross the
Atlantic without the left side of the
Cowling comping off, probably.

I disagree. Many of the visible rivets don?t appear to be set into the dimples. The lap joint between the side skin and the bottom skin is backwards. The top skin doesn?t even appear the lay down against the side skin towards the front. It appears that this plane is not even built correctly and I doubt that the airframe would be considered to be ?in a condition safe for flight? by an experienced builder or descent A&P.

Skylor
 
I?ve found that when the workmanship suffers so does the rest of the build and rigging quality.
To me there is no place for ?that?s good enough? with an airplane.
I'd have to disagree with this, but then again, I have several notable "well, sheee-its" in my plane.

  • I went off the end of the back plate on the bottom left elevator
  • I dinged the rear skin back of the fuselage riveting - Still visible
  • My forward canopy skirt fiberglass isn't smooth - Still visible
  • My canopy frame sat proud of the front deck and needed glass to fill it
  • I bent the canopy skirt tweaking the fit - still visible
  • The drill bit wandered drilling out a rivet and left a snail-trail on the skin
  • I mis-drilled a hole in the RMLG wheel pant to access the valve - still visible

I view each of those mistakes as talking points more than embarressments, even though those last two irk me the most, as they were done at a time when my skills should-have been better. Not one of those is structural, though I do keep an eye on the elevator for signs of future cracking. But beyond that, I fly in an aeroplane I built in my back shed. IT isn't perfect, it isn't even pretty compared to some outstanding RV's I've seen, but it is mine.

That being said, I would always recommend a thorough pre-buy on any RV, even if I was selling you mine.
 
I think some may have misunderstood my comments above. I am not so much looking for every single rivet to be perfect. I am very satisfied with a number of bad rivets (even quite a few) in an airplane if they are spaced out. My comments were about airframes I have seen where almost every rivet was underset...or every rivet was smashed beyond recognition. Those airframes need to be completely disassembled in order to be made anything resembling acceptable. That?s my definition of a junk airframe.

And as I said - you can replace poorly installed systems - but the bones are the bones...

One wonders when you see an airplane like that how an inspector signed it off?
 
This might win the prize for “Junk RV” that actually flew.

1001074cw0.jpg

LOL, I took that photo in 2007 at SnF. I just could not believe that it was signed off, and maybe it wasn't. I was a bit timid about taking too many photos, as it was scary bad. I did not photograph the N-number on purpose.
BTW, You should see the spinner! Let's just say fiberglass was not his forte...


2viry3b.jpg
 
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You can?t judge airworthiness from a photo unless it?s a photo of a specific edge violation or?
Again, I have seen a lot of RV?s that some in this group would just write off as junk, and maybe rightfully so, but they where airworthy.
Fit and finish and airworthiness are two different things. My definition of ?junk? starts and stops at airworthiness. Fit and finish is what separates RV?s from something I would own or not.

If you have the inclination, you can find some flying ?junk? for sale cheap and go to work on cleaning it up. Just know what you?re looking for or hire someone who does.

I know people who where not ashamed to tell me they bought a rough airplane but it was cheap and they worked hard and cleaned them up. Don?t under estimate how much work is involved in fixing poor workmanship but for some, this was the only path to owning an RV.
I have never seen a flying RV that was so bad it would have to be abandoned, but I am sure they are out there.
 
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