What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Service Bulletins 19-08-26 and 16-05-23 Published - Nose gear leg and fork

I would love to read experience review of early adopters how the drilling went. This is the only thing which creates some unease feelings for implementing this SB.
 
I noted Niner Bikes comment above re being 72 and not wanting to crawl into the crowded space to drill the holes for the new nose fork.

Well, I will be a few weeks short of 90-years old when I get my new fork, and I will crawl in and do the work...you just have to keep going
 
Hey Chris,
I wonder if we have to change the fork at all since we are both not ELSA or something else with the FAA. ... ? What will the guys in Europe or Australia do?



I would love to read experience review of early adopters how the drilling went. This is the only thing which creates some unease feelings for implementing this SB.
 
Hi Tom
Yes, from a regulatory perspective I also think we don't need to comply with. I will double check this.

But....I believe that Van's has very good reasons for making the new leg mandatory. (probably due to the fact that it is difficult or even impossible to check for cracks)
In my case a risk based analysis seems appropriate if regulations do not overrule.
I have TTAF 36h and 60 LDG in total. I am the only driver and operate mostly from paved RWY. The risk that I mess up something by replacing a perfect part and the fact that there has been only one known incident with a trainer A/C with 1700h makes me think twice to do it right now.

However, I have ordered all parts of both SB and will definitely do the new style fork. The leg will eventually follow, once I feel confident of the drilling process or if new data is availabe.
That's the plan for now.
 
What part do I need if my kit is still under construction?

A question has come up regarding at what point during an active construction project the nose gear retrofit kit should be used, rather than obtaining and getting the version of the new gear leg that is included in kits now being shipped. While we have already described the reasons a retrofit leg is required, I wanted to provide the specific steps in the plans to refer to if you are currently building and have already started work on your finishing kit.

The determining factor is whether or not one has already attached the nose gear and the engine mount, and then match drilled the firewall using these parts as guides. For RV-12iS this is covered in Section 46iS-05, Steps 1-7; for the original RV-12 this is covered in Section 46-08, Steps 1-3.

If the holes described in those assembly steps have already been drilled, the retrofit kit is required. If they have not yet been drilled, the kit version of the gear leg is needed.

A gear leg identification photo and more details are also available at this link.
 
I noted Niner Bikes comment above re being 72 and not wanting to crawl into the crowded space to drill the holes for the new nose fork.

Well, I will be a few weeks short of 90-years old when I get my new fork, and I will crawl in and do the work...you just have to keep going

We shall fly to Salida, CO and pay you well for your services, then! How long do you think it will take you? :D
 
At or before the next annual condition inspection ?

At or before the next annual condition inspection ?

I just finished the build of my RV12 and about to schedule a DAR for my airworthiness inspection.
Can I wait until my first annual condition inspection to do SB 19-08-26.

Thanks

Joe Dallas
 
I’m in the same boat, Joe. DAR scheduled for Tuesday. Since I signed my logbook as airworthy prior to the SB, I rationalize that constitutes a condition inspection so can delay a year. I’ll be going to paint in a couple of months, so plan to make the change out at that time since it will be apart anyway.
 
Parts are on order, but back logged, we were told 4 to 6 weeks.

Annual inspection can be done any time in Feb or March, as long as before 3-31 rolls around... and it's much nicer to do annual when the temps are cool and the Winds of March known as Santa Ana wind conditions haven't quite shown up yet here in So CA, before the sun really starts beating long and hard all day on the tin roof in the hangar.

Parts might not arrive until end of March, they are on back order, and would only leave the last week or two of March, if parts even show up, to do the annual.

If we complete annual before the parts arrive, do we install the parts at the annual in 2021, due to parts being on back order?
 
Last edited:
If we complete annual before the parts arrive, do we install the parts at the annual in 2021, due to parts being on back order?

S-LSA or E-LSA? If E-LSA you don't even have to comply with SB and if you do it can be done at time of your choosing. If S-LSA you need to follow SB to the letter.
 
serv bulletin 19-08-26 and 16-05-23

yesterday i was able to complete these two sb,s. all went well, but drilling the holes was the slowest part. the metal in the new fork is really hard stuff. the drilling bushings worked great. total of 6 hours from taking the cowling off to re stalling the cowling.
 
Parts are on order, but back logged, we were told 4 to 6 weeks.
Annual inspection can be done any time in Feb or March, as long as before 3-31 rolls around... and it's much nicer to do annual when the temps are cool and the Winds of March known as Santa Ana wind conditions haven't quite shown up yet here in So CA, before the sun really starts beating long and hard all day on the tin roof in the hangar.
Parts might not arrive until end of March, they are on back order, and would only leave the last week or two of March, if parts even show up, to do the annual.
If we complete annual before the parts arrive, do we install the parts at the annual in 2021, due to parts being on back order?

Your annual condition inspection does not have to be completed by 3/31. You just can't fly after that date until the condition inspection is completed.

Piper J3 is correct.
 
Your annual condition inspection does not have to be completed by 3/31. You just can't fly after that date until the condition inspection is completed.

Piper J3 is correct.

In the event the condition annual inspection is completed the first week of April ( in the heat...:( ) Is the next annual inspection after that due by April 30th of 2021, or can we do it earlier again in Feb or March, 2021? Owner figures it's best to do the work while everything is opened up already for the condition annual.
 
Last edited:
Your annual condition inspection does not have to be completed by 3/31. You just can't fly after that date until the condition inspection is completed.

Piper J3 is correct.

Piper J3 is correct, I agree. The REALITY is if the nose leg fails and the SB has not been completed then my insurance may not cover and even if it does the rates would become so high my flying days would be over. I am 80 and if I want to keep flying, everything has to be kosher.
 
In the event the condition annual inspection is completed the first week of April ( in the heat...:( ) Is the next annual inspection after that due by April 30th of 2021, or can we do it earlier again in Feb or March, 2021? Owner figures it's best to do the work while everything is opened up already for the condition annual.

Next condition inspection is due the last day of the month the following year from the sign-off. i.e. Sign off 01APR 2020...next inspection due 30 APR 2021.

You can always do it earlier.
 
Can I wait until my first annual condition inspection

S-LSA or E-LSA? If E-LSA you don't even have to comply with SB and if you do it can be done at time of your choosing. If S-LSA you need to follow SB to the letter.

Jim
I built EAB so I don’t think I need to comply with this SB
However I also agree with Tony T

Piper J3 is correct, I agree. The REALITY is if the nose leg fails and the SB has not been completed then my insurance may not cover and even if it does the rates would become so high my flying days would be over. I am 80 and if I want to keep flying, everything has to be kosher.

I want to do the SB when the weather is cool in the hard Florida winters and until I can master the landings
The reason for my question
At or before the next annual condition inspection?

I think Mel answer is, It will be ok for a year until my first condition inspection in February 2021.

Next condition inspection is due the last day of the month the following year from the sign-off. i.e. Sign off 01APR 2020...next inspection due 30 APR 2021.
You can always do it earlier.


Thanks

Joe Dallas
 
Last edited:
A question has come up regarding at what point during an active construction project the nose gear retrofit kit should be used, rather than obtaining and getting the version of the new gear leg that is included in kits now being shipped. While we have already described the reasons a retrofit leg is required, I wanted to provide the specific steps in the plans to refer to if you are currently building and have already started work on your finishing kit.

The determining factor is whether or not one has already attached the nose gear and the engine mount, and then match drilled the firewall using these parts as guides. For RV-12iS this is covered in Section 46iS-05, Steps 1-7; for the original RV-12 this is covered in Section 46-08, Steps 1-3.

If the holes described in those assembly steps have already been drilled, the retrofit kit is required. If they have not yet been drilled, the kit version of the gear leg is needed.

A gear leg identification photo and more details are also available at this link.

I have the finishing kit and apparently Section 46 does not come with the finishing kit. My nose gear and wheel, however is on, which I believe is Section 35 of the finishing kit (I'm going by memory, don't quote me). Two holes on the mount through the firewall are not yet drilled.

I've let Jessica know, who, by the way, appears to be working on a Sunday.

Bob
 
I just received an email from Van?s telling me that the nose gear and fork I ordered last Thursday will be shipped in 8 to 10 WEEKS! Nice that Van?s is working on Super Bowl Sunday. But really, 8 to 10 weeks to ship parts that are required by mandatory Service Bulletins? Van?s knows how many RV-12s are affected by the SBs. It couldn?t have gotten an earlier start on manufacturing the parts, or a later start on issuing the SBs? Is this any way to run a business?
 
I just received an email from Van?s telling me that the nose gear and fork I ordered last Thursday will be shipped in 8 to 10 WEEKS! Nice that Van?s is working on Super Bowl Sunday. But really, 8 to 10 weeks to ship parts that are required by mandatory Service Bulletins? Van?s knows how many RV-12s are affected by the SBs. It couldn?t have gotten an earlier start on manufacturing the parts, or a later start on issuing the SBs? Is this any way to run a business?

Relax... if your plane is E-LSA, you don't absolutely have to get the new fork and nose gear installed before your next inspection. Read above, only S-LSA is mandatory.
 
I just received an email from Van?s telling me that the nose gear and fork I ordered last Thursday will be shipped in 8 to 10 WEEKS! Nice that Van?s is working on Super Bowl Sunday. But really, 8 to 10 weeks to ship parts that are required by mandatory Service Bulletins? Van?s knows how many RV-12s are affected by the SBs. It couldn?t have gotten an earlier start on manufacturing the parts, or a later start on issuing the SBs? Is this any way to run a business?

We're spoiled. It's absurd to question how Van's runs a business. Is there a problem with flying your RV-12 in the next 8 to 10 weeks?
 
Spoiled

Talk about spoiled, I received an email from Vans this morning updating me on my SB order for a nose gear replacement and was advised l?m 1-2 weeks out from receiving the parts.

I would want to get started sooner too, but was appreciative of the communication, and I know Vans staff would like to get these orders filled ASAP.

I was very close to finishing my condition inspection, and was disappointed this SB was issue. I decided to do a couple of other things and included this SB to be part of this inspection. Oh well, it?s winter here in the Denver area anyway.
 
Why do we do business this way?

I don't often answer questions like this one simply because doing so can be seen as reactionary or come across as upset. Please understand that's not the case, and we certainly recognize that people get frustrated when their plans are disrupted. We have no issue with the question. Underlying the obvious frustration is a question that's not completely unreasonable to ask. Some of us are newer to RVs and experimental aviation than others, so maybe this is a good time and place to add even more background and color as to how complex and significant one (relatively) small decision such as this can be, and how important it is, in the grand scheme of things

I just received an email from Van?s telling me that the nose gear and fork I ordered last Thursday will be shipped in 8 to 10 WEEKS! Nice that Van?s is working on Super Bowl Sunday. But really, 8 to 10 weeks to ship parts that are required by mandatory Service Bulletins? Van?s knows how many RV-12s are affected by the SBs. It couldn?t have gotten an earlier start on manufacturing the parts, or a later start on issuing the SBs? Is this any way to run a business?

To make sure everyone understands, the SB is mandatory at or before your next condition inspection. The word "mandatory" is regulatory for SLSA aircraft. For ELSA and EAB, we as a manufacturer cannot force someone who owns an experimental aircraft to replace parts, but we view it as an important change that we classify as "mandatory." Our obligation to communicate the importance of available changes and parts is something we take seriously.

Let us try to explain -- in the best way we can -- why we are doing this and what's involved. Hopefully, it will help people better understand the bigger picture. We've been running this business successfully with an eye on safety for nearly 50 years. We're not perfect, but we do care. A lot. And we try very hard to do what's right.

The failure that we described in the SB occurred during the first few days of June 2019. Once we were aware of the incident, we immediately started investigating and began an FEA analysis (described earlier in this thread), which fairly quickly identified the root cause of the problem. At that moment we ceased shipment of all nose gear legs in RV-12 finish kits and threw away many thousands of dollars worth of parts inventory. We then began planning what we knew would be a complex, multi-month process to create and deliver a new gear leg. Note that we did not make a decision or take any action to ground the fleet. While this was an important problem to fix and get onto new and flying airplanes, the risk was not so severe as to warrant that drastic of an action. It was a serious enough problem, however, to create a replacement part and take action that will help ensure it gets installed across the fleet within a reasonable period of time, given the issue and potential consequences.

Our next set of tasks required us to design a fix, manufacture prototypes, perform testing, then plan and start production of the new parts. This takes an extensive amount of expensive time and effort. In addition, the actual production process for the gear leg parts is quite involved:

  • We order and receive from a subcontractor a specially-crafted straight nose gear tube that is threaded on one end and has four opposing holes drilled on the other
  • We install an inner tube that traverses the location of the stress concentration and tack weld it in place
  • It goes from our welding shop to our bending machines, where the upper and lower bends are created
  • It goes back to our welding team, where the inner tube is rosette welded and the previously manufactured upper and lower attach plates are welded into the final configuration
  • It then is installed onto a heat treat holding fixture that prevents it from warping during heat treating
  • It then goes to our heat treat contractor
  • When returned from the heat treat contractor it is removed from the fixture, goes thru our quality control (QC) check and is sent to our cleaning contractor
  • Once returned from the cleaning contractor it goes through our QC check again then sent to our powder coating contractor
  • Upon return, the parts go through the last QC check and are put into warehouse stock for shipment
The whole process is quite complex and takes lots of handling. But, this is our process to ensure quality parts that meet our specs. The time required to design, test and manufacture the new gear legs meant that we did not start receiving the first shippable parts until late December. All of the finish kits we had shipped from June until December had their nose gear legs back-ordered. Thankfully, we've been able to work down that list down quickly and ship the new legs with all finish kits. We had nearly 100 of the new retrofit gear legs in stock as well as several of the new non-retrofit kit legs to install before we published the SB last week. We have a batch that is approximately the same size currently in process, and many more coming. We tried to determine how many we'd need before publishing, and our orders slightly exceeded the stock on hand. The next set of legs is coming.

We reviewed and investigated many manufacturing alternatives to see if there was a way to speed up the process and/or reduce the impact of this change on all of the other work we're doing at Van's. The fact of the matter is this: designing and testing to assure the necessary results takes time. We cannot send these parts to just any welder, for example. Heat treating facilities that can handle this work are not common. We found the best combination of manufacturing processes to ensure the new part is good to go.

Unfortunately, we cannot please all of the people all of the time. We wish we could. But we will do our part in whatever way we can to keep people -- both the ones who are pleased and the ones who are not -- safe in their airplanes.

Thank you for your patience with us. We really do have - and work hard to act with - the best interests of our customers in mind.
 
Greg, I fully understand Van's situation and fully appreciate the way you are handling it. I don't mind waiting a bit.
er

John at Salida, CO
 
Thank you Vans for taking issues like this so seriously and issuing a fix. Us Vans owners are spoiled; so many other kit manufacturers basically wipe their hands of things as soon as a kit is out the door, leaving their building communities to figure things out by themselves. No new aircraft design is perfect, but most of us appreciate all the work you do to continually improve new kits and create fixes for old ones. Keep it up!
 
Greg,

I'm the guy who asked "Is this any way to run a business?" I asked the question impulsively, out of frustration, in part because I'm still waiting for my mechanic to replace the circlips that a Rotax SB required months ago. I'm not confusing Van's with Rotax, and I know that the circlips issue has nothing whatsoever to do with Van's. It's just that the delay in installing new circlips is due to the length of time it took Rotax to distribute circlips, after it released its SB. So when I received an email telling me Van's didn't have enough gears and forks on hand for all who ordered them, it triggered a "Not again!" gut response. I should have taken a deep breath and waited until today to post my reaction, because maybe I would have been more understanding. In any event, your latest post really does explain how Van's "does business" -- that is, how it goes about deciding how and what to do when an issue arises. For that, I thank you.

Lon
 
Let me suggest this: if you had to do a retrofit on some other plane similar to a RV-12...

Say a Sling 2 from South Africa, or one of those fancy CZech planes or a Bristell... you don't even want to think or guestimate how long it would take to get to the USA with the replacement part.

I own a VW Touareg TDI, and it was insane, even without having to re engineer or redesign the part, just get it shipped from Germany, a simple plastic molded shifter box for an 8 speed automatic transmission, all plastic. It was a well known issue, the daily driver was down for 6 weeks, due to a faulty electric switch that wouldn't release the keyfob, from the dashboard. The car was "hot" and could have been stolen at any time, due to inability to remove the fob out of the locking device in the dashboard.

Take, for example, Bing Constant Velocity altitude compensating carburetors, and sinking floats in those models, and how long it's taken to fix the problem, with numerous and various vendors. :rolleyes:

So, in the grand scheme of things, with the re engineering and new build and heat treating, I'd say Van's is doing remarkable under the circumstances.

I'd also probably give priority to any S-LSA's that are used in pilot schools being first in line. It's a major liability issue for them, they need flying planes to teach students, to stay in business. Grounded planes make them no money, at all.
 
Having spent almost 40 years in manufacturing - The Van's team is doing a most fantastic job. We are soooo lucky. Imagine having A 1989 ANTHING and getting factory parts and support for it?? I can still buy parts for 1989 RV4. I'm so happy I decided to build a RV back in 1986.
 
Ordered parts about 36 hours after SB published. Shipped 2/3 scheduled delivery 2/7. Thanks for the great service!
 
Greg,

Being an engineer I have a geeky question. Everything I?ve learned makes me expect a crack to initiate on the outside radius of a bend, so when you said the accident failure initiated on the inner wall of the landing gear tube I was perplexed. Then I thought the front wall of the tube is bent forward with the outer radius on the inner wall. Is that where the crack indicated: on the inner wall at the forward bend? Do you guys think it?s a residual stress issue from the bending process?

Rich
 
Greg,

Being an engineer I have a geeky question. Everything I’ve learned makes me expect a crack to initiate on the outside radius of a bend, so when you said the accident failure initiated on the inner wall of the landing gear tube I was perplexed. Then I thought the front wall of the tube is bent forward with the outer radius on the inner wall. Is that where the crack indicated: on the inner wall at the forward bend? Do you guys think it’s a residual stress issue from the bending process?

Rich

I think the inner radius bend would be in compression and not high stress. Outside radius would be in tension and subject to repetitive stress. Perhaps...
 
Last edited:
Wall thickness

I think the inner radius bend would be in compression and not high stress. Outside radius would be in tension and subject to repetitive stress. Perhaps...

I also think the wall thickness is thinner on the outside radius at the point of most tension

My view
 
I think the inner radius bend would be in compression and not high stress. Outside radius would be in tension and subject to repetitive stress. Perhaps...

Not an engineer, but that's surely the way concrete starts cracking in stress tests under load. The tension side cracks first, due to the lack of elasticity of the material. Later, the compression side on top starts crumbling/folding/wrinkiing.

The 1994 Northridge , CA Earthquake was a grim reminder of this, where I live. Tons of freeway with steel rebar and concrete falling down as our road structures collapsed.
 
For what it is worth, as an elderly A&P who does condition inspections yet but only on Vans products, as well as owning two of them, you can rest assured that Vans does not forget you after the sale, and never knowingly sells anything except first class products. It has always been that way!
 
FYI, I ordered my nose fork and leg yesterday and they quoted me a July/August ship date. :(

Did you call Van?s to order the Leg and then they gave the info over the phone. I ordered from the web store on Jan 31. There was no estimated time of shipment.
 
Did you call Van?s to order the Leg and then they gave the info over the phone. I ordered from the web store on Jan 31. There was no estimated time of shipment.

I ordered mine from the web store on Jan 30. Got an email a few days later that said they expect to ship in 6 - 8 weeks.
 
Did you call Van?s to order the Leg and then they gave the info over the phone. I ordered from the web store on Jan 31. There was no estimated time of shipment.

I placed a web order and then called the next day to check the backlog.
 
Are service bulletins mandatory?

S-LSA or E-LSA? If E-LSA you don't even have to comply with SB and if you do it can be done at time of your choosing. If S-LSA you need to follow SB to the letter.

Legally, you don't have the do the SB even if it is an S-LSA. Service bulletins are not mandatory by law under part 91, so even if Beechcraft issues an SB for the Baron, the Baron owner operating under part 91 doesn't have to do the SB. Only Airworthiness Directives (and Safety Directives for S-LSA) are mandatory under Part 91, although I'm not aware of any current AD's for experimental airplanes, or S-LSA's for that matter - it is possible to happen.

Rather than repeat the regulation, here's a link to a nice description of the regulatory requirement: Are SB's mandatory?, and of course the FAA's take on this as well, FAA Order on SB's becoming AD's

Now, common sense may dictate otherwise - and yes, I do plan to perform this SB, but private owners (who don't hire out their airplanes) are not required to comply with service bulletins unless mandated by an AD. Whether it's smart to do the SB is entirely different than a legal requirement to perform a service bulletin.
 
Last edited:
That's true for certificated aircraft but not SLSA.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.327

Hmm... a service bulletin is not a Safety Directive. While part 91.327 does require compliance with Safety Directives for S-LSA's, Van's issues Safety Alerts and Directives as well as Service Bulletins. So what legally makes this SB mandatory? If Van's felt it was a safety of flight issue affecting all aircraft, they would have issued this SB as a Safety Directive.

A minor point, but the FAA might argue that SLSA's are "certificated".
 
Last edited:
It's a good question - probably only Vans can answer that.

One other thing to note though is that in the continued airworthiness section of the Maintenance Manual is states

"The owner/operator of an RV-12iS shall comply with all Van's Aircraft Inc.
issued notices of corrective action..."
 
Last edited:
Fix completed

IMG_20200206_135654.jpg


My new nose gear arrived today(new one on the right) and within two hours, it was on the RV-12is project. Actual time was about 1.25 hours of work. The only thing I have to do is set the breakout force of the nosewheel assembly again. And I wasn't all that keen on how the nose gear fairing came out so I'll probably take another run at that.

It turns out the best thing I did was NOT buying an engine because it would've been installed by now, complicating the fix (I retired in the middle of last year and wanted to push any withdrawals from the retirement accounts into the new year and -- hopefully -- a new tax bracket). Funny how things work out.

Great job by Van's top to bottom.

IMG_20200206_144022.jpg
 
Last edited:
It's a good question - probably only Vans can answer that.

One other thing to note though is that in the continued airworthiness section of the Maintenance Manual is states

"The owner/operator of an RV-12iS shall comply with all Van's Aircraft Inc.
issued notices of corrective action..."

This is what I refer to as creating a point of contention. It has the appearance of making a service bulletin fulfill the role of a safety directive. If it's an airworthiness issue, it should be a directive. If it's a service bulletin, as in things that improve the service of the aircraft, then it should be a bulletin.

Beechcraft tried to make service bulletins an airworthiness issue years ago and got taken to court over it, resulting in the FAA Order I referenced earlier. If a manufacturer considers it a safety of flight issue, it should be a safety directive, which is why they have Safety Directives and Service Bulletins.

In the end, I'll just be happy I don't have an S-LSA and have to deal with this.
 
Last edited:
Long lead time on parts

I just talked with Vans and there is a 6 month wait on the new nose gear support.
 
Pretty sure I read somewhere that S-LSA's are built to ASTM standards, nothing more. Of how I am not sure how that would be a certificated aircraft? Seems so complex to me.
 
Back
Top