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P-Mag Operating Temperatures

Well, since you have spoken for every pmag owner I guess the case is closed. I think not...

Excuse me, I believe it was you who was speaking for the entire product line when you said:

...After running two pmags for two years (with an EI Commander) and having nothing but problem after problem with both of them, and after getting PM's from other pilots with problems, and pilots in my group with pmags that have had problems, I can say without a doubt that pmags are unreliable and inconsistent. I have lots of data to back this up.


So, since it appears you have no relevant data to back up your assertions of a flawed product line (aside from the dubious claim that the ignition is erratic, but the engine mysteriously performes perfectly), let me close by saying that it's my sincere hope that you find satisfaction. I dont want to speak for an entire population, but I hope your ignition someday performs as well as the 5 PMag equipped airplanes that I was directly involved with (one of which has an EIC, BTW). Perhaps you are right, and I'm the outlier, and I just have the Midas touch... If so, you are free to drop by my strip and I'd be happy to lay hands on your ignitions. just send me a PM.

At any rate, best of luck to you and fly safe.
 
Not really a good answer IMO, if this is really important then perhaps this "restrictor" should be supplied with each Pmag?

Obviously timing is adjusted using MP as an input, perhaps some of the problems being talked about here might have been caused by fluctuations at the MP line?

Or maybe business is slow and now everyone with a Pmag needs run out and buy an EIC :eek:

Walt, I assure you that I have no connection with Ed and Bill at EI Commander. I do think that Ed Anderson gives the best customer service I've ever seen and I couldn't be happier with having this monitor.. But there's nothing in this for me.

I'm just the messenger, regardless of one or two that don't like the message and seem think that twisting my posts somehow diminishes the truth. Ed and Bill can back up everything I've posted here about my experiences with my pmags and others. I have dozens of pics and graphs to prove all this.

It's up to each pmag owner, or any other ignition, to make sure they are working properly in a fashion they see fit. In certified aircraft the FAA mandates timed ignition overhauls but experimental has no mandates and no one other than us lab rats to determine if any product we install on our aircraft works properly or not. It's our *** that falls out of the sky if something doesn't work right, it's a big risk we take if products fail. Some products are far more important than others.

It's funny when I see one guy proclaiming the perfection of a product that has had so many failures, updates, upgrades and recalls. Now that's the perfect product. :cool:
 
I don't have a horse in this race. The O-320 that I'll be installing in my RV-3B came with magnetos and I have a pair of P-Mags that I can install. Later this month I'll chose one of these ignition systems, and that's how the engine will be configured. I've been reading this discussion and have some concern about the issues that Randy has mentioned.

I hope that we can restrict the discussion either to issues relating specifically to model 114 P-Mags that have the V40 service note complied with. Otherwise, please specify the model and the version you're mentioning; let's not get them mixed up. Granted, there were probably some problems or issues with the older types - but are there currently? That's my concern.

Randy, you've mentioned a number of times that the P-Mags are "unreliable," and either have or have had "problems," and even "failures." You've even said that you have "data," which you haven't shown.Well, if you can restrict it to the current systems, I'd appreciate seeing some of that. It would help me out in a timely manner. You haven't been specific about which models or software you've had experience with, except in post #37 where you said that they were the model 114 and V40, which is what I have.

So again, if you have actual data, and can offer some of it to us, I'd appreciate that. I'd especially like it if you can give us an idea of the number of poor experiences that you've heard of -- again, keeping it to model 114 and V40. I'm an old engineer, you see, and rather like data.

I was originally going to quote your previous postings from this thread but decided not to. If anyone wants to check what Randy said, simply read his postings here. I have no interest in provoking an acrimonious debate but please Randy, if you have relevant data, this is the time to present it.

Thanks,
Dave
 
+1 on Daves request for more data on the 114 with V40. I have some time before first flight (now painting) so I sent my P-Mags back for the V40 firmware update even though I have keyed ignition & Hartzell metal cs prop. They're on there way back from E-Mag now - great turn around from Brad and only charge was shipping.

Also an old Engineer.
 
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EI commander.

Hi Guys

It seem to have quiet since specific data was asked for, what does that mean?
Is there no data or just fed up arguing?

Again can I ask where the best deals are on the EI commander?

Secondly, what is the situation if the EI commander fails, does it take out your PMags? Is there a failure mode where this could happen?

I did my first test flight yesterday with my new 114's. 1hr 6 mins in the air, max ground speed just under 200 mph, at 2250RPM. There seemed a tad more power over the old single EI and mag.
 
This is the start of my explanation of the basic EICommander operation.
(For those that are unaware, I am 50% of the team that developed and market the EICommander.)

Disclaimers:
1. The operation of the P-mags are based on our observations and discussions with Brad and Tom at Emag Ignitions. Some of the things I will state below are up for interpretation.
2. Emag and EICommander are separate companies and do not have any legal of financial ties.
3. The EICommander only makes changes to the P-mags when commanded to do so by the pilot. Otherwise, it is a passive device and only listens to the P-mags. More on this later.

This image depicts "normal" operation.
10.JPG


The bar graph on the left and the 2.0 at the top indicate the timing difference between the two P-mags. We discovered that all magnetos have around a degree and a half of gear slop in them. Couple that to the 1.4 degree resolution of the P-mags (360/256) and we arbitrarily set the floor of the TDA (Timing Divergence Alarm) at 2.0 degrees.

The green and red boxes indicate the current firing angle of the ignitions; Green for the right P-mag and Red for the Left.
For starting, the P-mags with version 40 fire at 4* After Top Dead Center, earlier versions fire at Zero, or Top Dead Center. Once the P-mags see 200 RPM the timing is set to 19.6* BTC. The Manifold Pressure (MAP) doesn't impact the timing until around 1800 RPM, below that and timing is based on RPM alone. Above that RPM, both RPM and MAP dictate where along the timing curve the P-mags will fire.

The four bar graphs on the right side measure the quality of the ignition harness, coil packs, and spark plugs. We randomly set the data to a 100 point scale and added a green box in the middle to give the pilot a reference point. Short out a plug (fouled with led) and the bar graph will drop to zero. Have a plug wire fall off and the bar graph will go 100.
This is for trending information only. I have personally discovered that once a set of plugs (NGK BR8ES's) get around 120 to 130 hours the bar graphs are lower than "normal". Once they are replaced with new plugs, the graphs display above the green box. (I would be curious if other EIC users have noticed this.) We have had a set of plugs inspected by a PhD engineer who reported that the reason for the decrease in plug performance was caused by degradation of the plug's insulators. That is one reason I do not recommend buying high dollar plugs as I suspect, but don't know, that they use the same insulating material. Besides, for less than $20 for a complete set of BR8ES, they are cheap enough to replace every year. One other thing, I never noticed any decrease in engine performance or an increase in engine roughness. The only way I knew the plugs were degrading is because the EIC told me.
The reason there are only four bar graphs is because the P-mags fire on two cylinders at the same time (wasted spark), so with four bar graphs we can indicate the condition of all eight cylinder's ignitions. The two graphs on the left of the graph centerline are for the left P-mag and those on the right are for the right P-mag. The white bars indicate the ignitions for cylinders 1 & 2 and the blue for cylinders 3 & 4.

EICommander operational basics:
The Timing Divergence is determined by the difference in timing of the trailing edge of the analog tach signal from both P-mags and adjusting the timing based on RPM. (Thus, the need to wire the EIC to both P-mag's tach signal.)
All other data displayed is produced by the P-mags and sent to the EIC via the serial port (Pins 2 & 3). The EIC does not interpret the data, other than the coil pack data and then it is only normalized to a 100 point scale.

To be continued...
 
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The EICommander has over forty different screens and it will be impossible for me to describe them all here, tonight.

The P-mag has basically two memory locations, A and B. Many of you know these as the A (Jumper in) and B (Jumper out) curves.

The A curve is fixed and cannot be changed; however, the B curve is available for adjustment. It is this B memory location that we utilize with the EIC. If you want to run on the "A Curve" we simply send the A configuration to the B memory location. If you create a custom configuration, that too will be sent to the B memory location.

The following three screens display the "static data" or configuration data on the P-mags, again Red for the left P-mag and Green for the right.

Screen 1 displays the Firmware version (V36 in this image), Run Mode Start Delay (0 means the P-mags will fire the first time they see a cylinder. It can be increased, forcing the P-mag to wait X number of revolutions prior to firing.), LED Mode (set to Senser mode), and Max Temp (The maximum temperature ever recorded by the P-mags. The temperature sensor has not been calibrated, thus the temperatures can be all over the place.)
7.JPG



Screen 2 displays the RPM Max (The RPM to stop firing the ignitions. We set it lower than Emag but it can be adjusted. This can save you from an overhaul, should you have a prop governor failure. 3328 RPM is the factory default.), Adv MAX (The maximum advance allowed.), ADV shf (The timing curve starts at 26* BTC, so a 0 shift means to set the timing at 26* BTC. The Advance Shift can be increased or decreased by entering a positive or negative number.), and VOL bus (The voltage recorded on the electronics bus. It has nothing to do with where that voltage is coming from.)
8.JPG



Screen 3 displays the TAC ppr (Tachometer Pulses Per Revolution. This can be adjusted based on the tachometer it is connected to.), PROPDeg (The current prop angle. The 183 and 193 degrees indicate the P-mags are timed 10 degree apart. This can happen when the prop is moved between setting the TDC mark or with pre firmware version 40 that these P-mags have, one ignition could have had its TDC mark reset during the starting sequence.), and TEMPcurr (The current temperature, again from an un-calibrated sensor.)
9.JPG


To be continued ...
 
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Streaming data:

This screen displays data as the engine is running. It displays the current timing advance, the RPM, the Bus voltage, and the coil pack data. (I have no idea why it is showing different RPM's. It is very possible that the P-mag is seeing a slight difference due to the sampling rate of the electronics. This number is not used to calculate the TDA alarm.)
5.JPG


To be continued ...
 
Interpretation:

Randy posted some good pictures and the following is not a commentary based on his experience. It is based on how I would interpret the screens and what I would recommend the pilot / operator check.

TDA of 7.0 degrees, the maximum we report. Land immediately and check the timing. This can be caused by a lost timing mark, again a pre firmware version 40 issue. As far as I know, no one has experienced a lost timing issue with V40. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed!)

We have had customers send different timing configurations to their P-mags, which caused similar results as what Randy displays in this image.

Not wiring the P-mags and EIC per the manual can also cause extraneous EIC TDA alarms. (If you have read my posts about installing and wiring the P-mags, you now understand why it is so important!)

Believe it or not, moving the prop to TDC and blowing in one P-mag's MAP line and then walking over to the other side of the plane, without moving the prop, and blowing in the other P-mag can cause such alarms. That is why I again recommend blowing in the MAP line and setting both TDC marks with one breath, rather than individually.

The low coil pack data on the right side isn't a concern but I would continue to monitor it over time.

CIMG5095.JPG


This picture was taken prior to engine start, note the coil pack data is not displayed and the timing advance outputted is the default 19.6. The P-mag never puts out the starting mode timing.
EIC%2525205.JPG


To be continued ...
 
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Something is not right...

Notice on this picture that the TDA alarm is above 2.0 and that the right coil data is very low. I would probably pull this P-mag and send it back for inspection.
CIMG3826.JPG


The "XXX" in the red box (left P-mag) indicates the P-mag isn't putting out some or all of the streaming serial data. This can happen because the EIC lost communication with the P-mag or because the P-mag was busy firing the plugs and didn't out put some or all of the data. Typically resetting the EIC (pressing the black button) will correct this issue.
20151120_1139441.jpg


To be continued...
 
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That is the basics of the EIC operation.

I hope / expect Randy to chime in with his experience.

Great set of photos Randy, thanks for posting them.
 
FWIW one more data point.

I have 2 114 Pmags without the latest software. I run a heavy prop and have timed them to be approx. 2 deg after TDC. So I don't feel I would benefit from the lastest software.

Anyway, I only have 42 hrs so far so my experience is low but steadily growing. CHT's run in the low to mid 300's. I do have a GRT engine monitor and do study the data often. It would seem to me that both Pmags have been flawless. I feel that if one would be advancing the timing too far or otherwise functioning improperly, CHT on one or several cylinders would rise unexpectedly, and or unusual vibration would occur. Am I wrong? Consistent engine feel (vibration), power and temps is how I know they are/were running fine.

While anything mechanical and electronic can fail, I feel comfortable knowing I have two independent ignitions that can be run L, R or both, and many others have had great experiences too. Is there something wrong with this assumption?

Bevan

PS I have no EI Commander installed but blast tubes to the finned areas as per the instructions.
 
Thanks Bill for sifting through the huge stack of EIC pics I've accumulated over the last few years. You've laid down the basics of the Commander and only some if it's functions ( it does many ), but functions that pertain to the problems.

As you know I'm now running a ver 40 left and ver 36 right set of pmags. Prior to the ver 40 they were both ver 36 as new from emag. I can address the few points you've shown in the example pics. The XXXX's for example did not go away after a B6 reset, they would show sometimes for hours. The 7* TDA was never displayed until I changed the left board to a ver 40. The 4.0 TDA was during cruise flight and randomly would change from 2.0 to over 5 TDA with nothing else changing. And of course the stopped left / right timing displayed is after the prop has been moved from pushing the plane back into the hangar, it should show nearly the same degrees left and right.

I have shouted the importance of the EIC over and over and this is why. Regardless of the interpretation of the results the EIC display pics I've posted speak for themselves. There are obvious anomalies going on and the EIC does monitor them and show them. My EIC has been flawless, wish I could say the same for the pmags they are connected to.
 
FWIW one more data point.

I have 2 114 Pmags without the latest software. I run a heavy prop and have timed them to be approx. 2 deg after TDC. So I don't feel I would benefit from the lastest software....
If you have a key switch that un-grounds both P-mags per the manual, you will probably never have an issue.

HOWEVER...

If you are using toggle switches, and forget to unground one P-mag when you hit the starter, you have about a 40% chance of resetting the TDC mark on the ignition that was powered but grounded (ie. in setup mode).

As I stated above, I am yet to hear of a single lost timing issue with V40 114 P-mags and that version has been out for about a year and a half.
 
Thanks Bill,

I have the traditional start switch controlling the P-leads. So no problem there.

However, if the breaker/fuse that allows electrical power to the Pmag is off when the P-leads are ungrounded and the starter is engaged, I understand that the engine will turn over, likely not start but most importantly, I won't cause any damage or changes to the timing settings? Correct?

Also, when doing a runup check, I use 1700 RPM and leaned out a bit, I get about 100 drop on one Pmag, about 60 on the other. Is this because I have one set firing the top plugs while the other fires the bottoms or could there be also another cause?

Bevan
 
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Thanks Bill,

I have the traditional start switch controlling the P-leads. So no problem there.

However, if the breaker/fuse that allows electrical power to the Pmag is off when the P-leads are ungrounded and the starter is engaged, I understand that the engine will turn over, likely not start but most importantly, I won't cause any damage or changes to the timing settings? Correct?
The problem seems to happen when they are grounded but powered, so you should be OK.

Also, when doing a runup check, I use 1700 RPM and leaned out a bit, I get about 100 drop on one Pmag, about 60 on the other. Is this because I have one set firing the top plugs while the other fires the bottoms or could there be also another cause?

Bevan

I believe you are correct. Mine are staggered, like traditional mags and my drop is around 50 RPM; however, I do my run-up at 1500 RPM and watch the EIC as well as the tach.
 
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Nagging doubts now...

I'm a casual p-mag user. By that I mean, I conscienciously installed my p-mag per instructions. I always pre-flight per recommendations. But I don't have that much instrumentation. I have a Van's CHT and EGT gauge on #3.

I only have a few hours on my p-mag. (One p-mag, one slick) But so far it has performed reliably.

In some ways this thread is unfortunate. Now every time I fly I have nagging doubts about my p-mag. I notice the slick in the back of the hangar and wonder if I should just get it overhauled, to get rid of my doubts.

Yes I could install more instrumentation. But I like keeping my airplane simple. That's one thing I really liked about p-mag. It is a simple, straightforward replacement for my slick that needed overhauling.

If I knew the answers to the following questions, I might feel better.

How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?

Thanks,
Michael-
 
I'm a casual p-mag user. By that I mean, I conscienciously installed my p-mag per instructions. I always pre-flight per recommendations. But I don't have that much instrumentation. I have a Van's CHT and EGT gauge on #3.

I only have a few hours on my p-mag. (One p-mag, one slick) But so far it has performed reliably.

In some ways this thread is unfortunate. Now every time I fly I have nagging doubts about my p-mag. I notice the slick in the back of the hangar and wonder if I should just get it overhauled, to get rid of my doubts.

Yes I could install more instrumentation. But I like keeping my airplane simple. That's one thing I really liked about p-mag. It is a simple, straightforward replacement for my slick that needed overhauling.

If I knew the answers to the following questions, I might feel better.

How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?

Thanks,
Michael-

Michael,

Tons of airplanes flying around in the same situation as you.

I have rolled my own monitor for my P-Mag and have not seen anything that makes me want to pull my P-Mag and lose the benefits it provides.

Take a macro look at this thread and the reported history of the P-Mag since they went thru their teeth cutting period and you may feel better.

There is also another possibility that nobody has mentioned yet in this thread....I just don't have the energy or passion around this discussion to bring it up.
 
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...
How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?

Thanks,
Michael-
Michael,

You absolutely DO NOT need an EICommander to fly safely with the P-mags!

Having tracked a number of issues over the years, I believe that with all the updates Emag has made to the P-mags, up to and including the firmware version 40 update, they have licked the last of their issues.

The early P-mags had problems with the trigger magnet falling off. Between that and their software issues, there were a number of lost timing incidents. The magnets are now securely held in place and as far as I know, are holding up well.

As I explained earlier, the version 40 upgrade solves the last of the known software (unexplained) lost timing issues. These typically happened with people running a mixed ignition or using independent ignition switches and turn the engine over with one P-mag powered but grounded. That is the set-up mode and although the average of the manifold pressure is negative, there are high intensity positive pulses in the system that act just like someone blowing on the tube trying to set the timing. So the crank turns, the P-mag gets two positive pulses and resets the timing to some unknown crank angle.

As I mentioned, as soon as we discovered this, we notified Emag, and they had a fix out within a week. That was a year and a half ago and since then they have not introduced any new updates. (We also requested they set the timing for starting to a few degrees after TDC to reduce the chance of a kickback, which they did.)

To answer your questions, "How many engines have be ruined by a p-mag? How many inflight engine stoppages have been caused by a p-mag?"
That is difficult to answer. Early on, a "Canard Guy" claimed the P-mag destroyed his engine; however, he installed the P-mags after his engine had chewed up his standard mag's. When I read his comments, it sounded to me like he had an issue, unrelated to the P-mags and was trying to get Emag to buy him a new engine.
Also, the P-mags have gone through a number of hardware and firmware updates over the years. So while there were some issues, I am unaware of any that truly caused an inflight engine stoppage or damage.

As far as I know, there has not been a single lost timing issue with version 40. The number of 113 P-mags flying without the hardware and software upgrades is unknown to me. Maybe the Emag guys can tell you.

I now have 700 hours behind P-mags and have had two issues. On my second flight, running early 113's, I lost the timing on one and saw my CHT's climb significantly higher than I would like on climb out. I was able to throttle back and land safely. (That was the genesis of the EICommander.) The P-mags were sent in for a software update and the problem never reoccurred. (My wiring is different than recommended.) Had I known about the timing issues then, I could have cycled my P-mags, one at a time, and isolated the bad ignition in flight and saved myself a lot of angst!

When Emag announced the fix for the magnet retention, I immediately sent them both in for the upgrade.

When I changed my engine, I bought the 114 boards and installed them in both P-mags. (I have 113 bodies with 114 electronics. We needed to be able to test the EIC with the new boards.)

At 500.2 hours, the internal generator on one of my P-mags died. The ignition never skipped a beat and the only way I knew there was an issue was during my pre-flight, where I drop the power to the P-mags, one at a time, and the engine died. I think I might be the only one who had that issue and I attribute it to the catastrophic prop strike that caused me to change the engine.

Back to your concern, as long as you have all the hardware updates (114's include all these updates), are running the correct timing and have installed and timed the P-mag correctly, you should not have an issue.

Feel free to send me your number, if you want to talk off line about the P-mag.
 
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Seeing how I'm the one that is doing the most tracking here of the anomalies I've been monitoring I'd like to say that my engine, running two pmags, has never failed during flight. I have, on a some occasions, had to pull the power way back to get the CHT's down some, even at cruise settings. But taking about 10 degs out of the advance has rained in the CHT over temps.

I have never said the I've had engine failure from pmags or that you must have an EIC to fly pmags. What I've said over and over is that without an EIC or laptops with EICAD you have no way to monitor your important ignition systems. With pmags, complete failure was not always the issue, timing shifts were an issue as well. This could be catastrophic, even with a mag backup, but I personally don't know of anyone that has had a catastrophic failure from a pmag.

It's up to each pilot what makes him / her feel comfortable in the cockpit. I personally feel that the more performance you ask from an engine or aircraft the more you need to monitor and make sure everything is working as expected. You don't want to find out that something is not working properly when it's too late.

Anyone can take a look at all the monitoring pics I've posted and come to their own conclusion. I didn't make up these pics, there's no photo shop here, this data is real.
 
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114

As a data point- FWIW: I have ran the 114 and a slick mag setup through the A-curve operation with the exception of one winter at B-curve. If there are temporary or permanent issues, I have not seen these of over 500 hours and 4 years. My P-mag is due for a checkup I believe. My main concern of the P-Mag is seeing over 200 deg temps in the desert summer by a heat soaked engine compartment. The P-mag has seen the round sensor turn color some time last year or more. But I believe this color turn is a continuation of heat exposure for some X(?) time frame. I have ran the EICAD software on the 114 to verify the setup and even thought of setting a more conservative advance base than the A Curve. For the short duration of checks of PMag timing and operation with EICAD- It works as advertised.
Also, my slick failed in flight and the P-mag was the ignition source that continued powered flight to the next airport.
That's my experience so far,
your mileage .... (insert :D:cool::mad::eek::eek:)...may vary
 
... My main concern of the P-Mag is seeing over 200 deg temps in the desert summer by a heat soaked engine compartment. The P-mag has seen the round sensor turn color some time last year or more. But I believe this color turn is a continuation of heat exposure for some X(?) time frame. ...
Brad, we have noticed that the heat exposure comes when you land on a hot day, on a hot ramp, not necessarily in flight.

The high temperature on the P-mags tend to get set when someone lands, pulls up to the pumps and shuts down. Lets everything get nice and hot under the cowling while fueling, and then powers up the P-mags. i.e.: Normal operation. That heat soaked P-mag sets the max temp and it never goes away. That said, I live in the Carolinas and have seen some extremely hot and humid days (Hi 90's on both) and the P-mags have never skipped a beat. Granted, that is no Arizona hot but I don't think the few degrees difference will hurt the P-mags.

Having them in for a checkup is worth the cost.
 
I have just installed 2 E-Mags on my RV6 with O-320 and I am looking for the best blast tubes to use and a way to install them. Any pics and suggestions. Once I get these on I can fly. :D
Tony

This is probably the best picture I have of how I secured my blast tubes. Two adel clamps have worked fine. Remember, they are supposed to blow on the neck of the P-mag.

An idea I had when installing my 2 Pmags was to make an enclosure around the finned area of the Pmag to help make the air blast more effective. ...
If you make a shroud, please post pictures!
 
Thanks Eddie. Contact Aircraft Spruce, they will be happy to ship you one. We do not sell direct due to tax issues and export issues in your case.

Eddie

I have a shipment about ready to go to OZ, we can share the shipping cost if you want.

Jake J

Running 2 P-Mags with 200+ hrs so far, all's good !!
 
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Easiest way to orient Pmag blast tube

Not my idea, copied from someone else on VAF. Simple to install, works great. Easiest way to keep a blast tube pointed to the neck of the Pmag is to use some safety wire. Run a loop of safety wire around the neck of the Pmag and up the inside of the blast tube. Secure the safety wire on the engine side of the baffle.

This ensures that the end of the blast tube will always be pointing to the neck of the Pmag. No clamps needed.
 
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Eco commander

Hi

I am about to order a commander, but noticed on the Spruce website that the display appears to be connected to the brain box by a 6 inch ribbon. This would not be long enough for my set up. Is it possible to get a longer ribbon?
 
Hi

I am about to order a commander, but noticed on the Spruce website that the display appears to be connected to the brain box by a 6 inch ribbon. This would not be long enough for my set up. Is it possible to get a longer ribbon?
That is for the old rectangular EIC, which we no longer manufacture due to issues with getting parts. The only one currently available is the round EIC, which is completely self contained and does not require any kind of external brain box.

Sorry about the confusion.
 
Looks like I am getting a second Pmag and if I can find a space on my panel, I would also get a EIC. I would hate to lose any of my current instrument to replace it with this.
 
Answer the original question

Now that I had a chance to get some flights in and get the data the OP asked for to begin with... Here's two pics of the pmag temps on a tightly cowled 360 engine. One is inflight and the other is right after landing and refueling, giving the pmags some time to soak up some heat. By the data shown it looks like the pmags are well within the operating temps prescribed by Emag. Granted, this wasn't a 110 deg OAT day but it's also not a 50 deg OAT either. Adding 30 ~ 40 more degs OAT would take the pmags to their published limit but there has been no indication of my pmags not firing on a hot summer day in SoCal.

Flying_zpsjnswxnhg.jpg

After%20Fueling_zps7dd7mwex.jpg
 
Not really a good answer IMO, if this is really important then perhaps this "restrictor" should be supplied with each Pmag?

Obviously timing is adjusted using MP as an input, perhaps some of the problems being talked about here might have been caused by fluctuations at the MP line?

Or maybe business is slow and now everyone with a Pmag needs run out and buy an EIC :eek:

Walt,

Restrictors can be a critical piece depending upon how the software smooths out the jumpy MAP readings. When I installed my Dynon 120 on my O-320, the MAP was jumping around with a good 5" variability. A .040" restrictor smoothed it out nicely. When I put a custom EFII on my Porsche, I had a lot of issues that were solved by installing a large vacuum accumulator another method of smoothing). The software in that particular EFI didn't do a good job smoothing out the fluctuating vacuum signal and it needed to be done mechanically.

I can't speak to the Pmag, but ignition systems do need stable MAP/vacuum readings to perform properly.

Larry
 
PMag Temps from EI Commander

So my engine has dual Mags. Originally I installed a vertical card standby compass on the right hand side of the instrument panel but it turns out if the two back up batteries for the EFIS that are always charging in flight are close by the heading indications are not that reliable. Kind of like the watch with a flat battery that is right twice a day. So what to do with a 2 odd inch hole in the instrument panel? Well putting in an EI commander seemed like the most sensible and useful answer.

My engine has 140 hours on it since new. I have had air blast tubes off the back of the plenum since new as per the PMag instructions. I also installed some temperature sensitive tape on installation to keep an eye on temperatures. With a new engine that started flying in the SOCAL summer my oil temperatures have not exceeded 190F. Coincidentally the temperature tape on the body of the Mags also shows 190F.

Using the EICommander I see that the maximum temperature recorded to date is 255C. I think this may violate a few laws of thermodynamics as this equites to 491F. Today with an OAT of 18C the pre start current PMag temp was 6 & 3C. After taxi and runup was complete with engine oil temp of 124F the EI Commander showed PMag temps as 20C and 10C. After a climb from 4,000' to 10,000' where the OAT was 4C and with an engine oil T of 174F the PMag showed 34C and 23C. After 20 minutes of cruise with engine oil T of 175F the Mags showed 48C and 34C.

Based on the above I consider the PMag temperature sensors to be inaccurate and of no practical value. It seems to me that a large metal object bolted to the back of the engine accessory case will likely be same temperature as the engine oil that is splashed around inside said case.

Given the instructions were to install blast tubes and there is anecdotal evidence that high temps may not be good for the PMags it does not meet my risk/reward level to repeat the experiment without the blast tubes.

Sorry for mixing units but I think the discrepancies are pretty clear.

For your consideration

Nige
 
You are correct, the temperature sensors on the P-mags are not calibrated and occasionally record the maximum temperature you observed.

Unfortunately, the only way to reset the Max Temp is to send them back to Emag.
 
This is why I added my own temp sensors to the pmags. I've posted the inflight and after flight temp readings. They are will within emag's published parameters. Emag says not to use the pmag temp readings.
 
I just noticed that my temp stickers on my PMAG?s were both black. Odd since they went through a summer in the mojave desert without turning black, but sometime recently they went black (since the last oil change).

My oil has never been above 210 ever, and is normally 190 in flight. CHT?s are 320-350 with a max of 380. I?ve ordered some new temp stickers with a range of indicators so I can tell exactly how hot the PMAGs are getting.

Think this is cause for concern? I have blast tubes and my cooling to all other engine components seems nominal. My guess is that a heat soak during a quick turn in 90-100 degree OAT?s is the cause.

I?ve never had an issue with the ignitions, but am wondering if I?m setting myself up for an issue?
 
Does anybody know of available temperature sensors to easily monitor P-Mag temperatures on a DYNON SkyView EMS?

:confused:
 
Temperature

I installed a p-mag in my Giles in winter with a temp sensor attached to it. Recently, when the temp. on the ramp reached 90-95F, i observed that the p-mag case temperature shot up to 200F briefly after shutdown. I wonder what it is going to be when the ramp temperature reaches 100-110? Their temperature limitations are RIDICULOUS. I guess now I'm out of warranty because of that stupid temperature sticker. The temperature never exceeds 100-100 in flight.

-- Not a happy EMag customer
 
I installed a p-mag in my Giles in winter with a temp sensor attached to it. Recently, when the temp. on the ramp reached 90-95F, i observed that the p-mag case temperature shot up to 200F briefly after shutdown. I wonder what it is going to be when the ramp temperature reaches 100-110? Their temperature limitations are RIDICULOUS. I guess now I'm out of warranty because of that stupid temperature sticker. The temperature never exceeds 100-100 in flight.

-- Not a happy EMag customer
What sensor are you using and how are you displaying the temperature?

:cool:
 
If you order an Engine Bridge EI it will display all the info (internal temperature, advance angle etc..) on your Dynon or other digital EMS. You wont read this on their web site because it is a new capability and they have not changed the web site yet. The newer version also lets you make adjustments from any smart phone

https://www.enginebridge.com/product/engine-bridge-ei/

The price is going up when they get around to updating their website, so I would order soon if this is the route you choose to go.
 
What sensor are you using and how are you displaying the temperature?

:cool:

While not exactly what you are looking for, the Dynon EMS system comes with a carbuerator thermocouple to monitor carb temps for icing. I used that to monitor the Earthx battery temperature in my RV-7. It is mounted on the firewall directly above the battery.

You could mount it next to the P-Mag. It would not give you internal temperature but would give you a pretty good indication of the case and surrounding area temps.

It would display carb temp on the EFIS but you would know what it really is indicating.
 
While not exactly what you are looking for, the Dynon EMS system comes with a carbuerator thermocouple to monitor carb temps for icing. I used that to monitor the Earthx battery temperature in my RV-7. It is mounted on the firewall directly above the battery.

You could mount it next to the P-Mag. It would not give you internal temperature but would give you a pretty good indication of the case and surrounding area temps.

It would display carb temp on the EFIS but you would know what it really is indicating.
Not a bad idea. I can change the displayed sensor name and call it PMagTemp. My question would be how to attach it to the PMag so it provides a "good enough" indication of case temperature not just the surrounding air temp.

:cool:
 
I used aluminum tape to secure it to the firewall. It?s been there for over a year without coming off. The thermocouple is small and weighs next to nothing.
 
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