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Safest RV & Best Route - CA to CO commute?

JKoiter99

I'm New Here
Hi Everyone,

I'm a new member, first post here, but I've spent hundreds of hours reading threads over the past 10 years or so. Great forum! Thanks for having me. Please note I've searched and read lots on here about mountain flying and the differences between models before posting this. Just looking for more insight.

Quick bit about me...I'm 39, student pilot and homebuilder, father of three (7, 9, 11) out here in Southern California, and I've been building a Zenith for about a year - it was actually a quick-build kit from Bonanza MetalCrafters out of the Philippines - like many quick-build RVs! Only four were built and the craftsmanship is excellent. BUT...

My plans and mission are changing, and I'm looking to relocate back to my hometown of Colorado Springs in about 3-4 years, but i'll still need to work in Los Angeles after we move, for a good 5-7 years. So of course, I'd rather fly myself back and forth whenever possible. The Zenith just won't do that efficiently.

Before anyone mentions it, yes, mountain flying courses and recurring training are on my agenda (both here and in CO), and I hope to finish my private and IFR ticket by this time next year, and spend as much time in the air as possible after that. Shooting for at least 250 hours before we move.

Here are my Questions:

1) Given that I'd like to (winds and weather permitting) fly from LA to Colorado Springs often, between the -6A,-7A, -8A, -9A, which plane is best? Looking for the best blend of safety, speed, service ceiling, maneuverability, and survivability (if I had to put it down). Several posts say that for the altitude to fly over mountains go with the -9A over the -7A, but then someone always turns around and says you'll get beat up in turbulence more with the -9 wing, so go with the -7A. And, according to the website both the -7 and the -9 have 24,500 ceilings, so...

I've also heard the -6 and -8 owners say those are great for cross country as well. All with similar performance. Makes the decision that much harder!

2) What are the best routes from L.A. to Colo Spgs?

3) I know they're not very popular, but if any of you were flying that route regularly, would you opt for a BRS?

Thanks!
 
Young Love....

"fly from LA to Colorado Springs often"

A lear 24 or 25 or a Falcon 10 can be found for about what a ready to fly 10 would cost you.

A used TBM will cost more but is more realistic to own and manage.

Not that you can't do it in an RV, but you say often and for work, inferring a schedule to keep. Wx does not follow schedules. Airliners do, and you can stretch your legs and relax.

Build the RV of your dreams and enjoy it, but upper winds and weather will often be a heartbreaker if you have a schedule to keep into Colorado. All piston singles and most light twins have the same reality to face in that they are not remotely practical for ice and high winds in or even over the mountains.
 
Ah yes, I'll admit at first I may have been a little too attached to the idea and wished I could just fly back and forth on a whim all the time...but I'm too much of a realist and that faded quickly.

--but not so quickly that I didn't still think it could be possible:)

To clarify, when I say 'often' I certainly didn't mean every time I need to travel to CA. I know I'll be traveling commercial quite a bit, but when the forecast is good and I can buffer a day (or more) to get out there, why not take my own?

Given my line of work I'll have enough flexibility in my schedule to fly myself some of the time. Lots of my work can be done remotely, so i would just need to fly out for sessions or meetings.

Again, if and when it's safe to do so.

Has anyone here flown from Socal to CO? I'd love to hear your experience and route details. Thanks!
 
For a fairly new pilot, I’d say that you leave Colorado Springs southbound and take it south until you turn the corner at the south end of the Sanger de Cristos, then follow Route 66, just like in the song. On a really nice day, you can cross over the mountains at Walsenberg, then down to Santa Fe and pick up the route.

The thing is, you’ll need and want flexibility in route planning, and you’ll pick that up with experience.

And the IFR rating is absolutely a plus for any pilot because of the added skills, but I always tell folks that if you’re flying single engine pistons, you’ll cancel just about as many trips as if you were VFR because you still cant do anything about ice or thunderstorms - the big show-stoppers. You’ll find that its hard to go IFR Direct in the mountains because the MEAs will be pretty high, so expect that you’ll still be detouring around the big ranges.

Enjoy the journey - in all respects!

Paul
 
I used to commute from Oxnard, CA, to Boulder, CO in a C180, doing it VFR. I'd do it at odd intervals except in the winter. In the winter, I could usually choose a decent weather window but given that the flight took me roughly six hours plus a stop, daylight was a factor. I only flew in daylight.

I'd go past Daggett, near the Boulder, NV area, go just north of the Grand Canyon, stop for fuel either at Needles Outpost (their airport is now closed) or something like Page, go north of the La Salle Mountains, just south of Grand Junction, then up the Colorado River/I-70 valley until I got to about Glenwood Springs. Then I'd decide, based on weather and winds, whether to head directly to the Divide near Winter Park or to go via Kremmling and cross the Divide near Cameron Pass.

Your route will be more like Ironflight recommended. It's an easier, safer route but surface winds can be sporty. A nosedragger might well be easier to manage than my old taildragger.

Generally, the main weather issues were high winds, turbulence and afternoon thunderstorm build-up over the Colorado high country.

Going westbound, the main issues would be either winds over the Divide or winds and turbulence west of say Page, as the day went on. For me, turbulence increases my need to pee and I carried a pee bottle - essential equipment.

A BRS would have been a comfort, to be sure. But the terrain was so rugged and remote over much of this, that the bigger problem would have been survival, rescue and recovery. With today's 406 ELTs that's less of an issue but still something to consider. Don't know that I'd have one in an RV, considering the full cost (money, time, weight, external harness, survivability on the ground). The overall impact might be rather high, compared to the probability that it I'd need it and it would ultimately lead to a save.

I had the benefit of good altitude performance and oxygen and regard both as mandatory.

Within the RV airplanes, I'd choose an RV-9 or an RV-10, if I had a choice. However, all would be suitable. The RV-12 would suffer from the low wing loading and relatively low speed in that comparison.

Dave
 
I don't have much advice on the route, but I would vote for a BRS. I'm building one into mine. Depending on where you fly, there aren't many places to land. I've flown from Boulder to Steamboat, Vail, Leadville, etc. in Diamonds and a Cirrus and knowing that the handle is there when you literally cannot see a flat spot to land is at least a little comforting.

If you are going to fly in the mountains, I highly recommend Fletcher Anderson's book "Flying the Mountains", as long as you ignore the irony that he didn't follow his own advice.
 
For a fairly new pilot, I’d say that you leave Colorado Springs southbound and take it south until you turn the corner at the south end of the Sanger de Cristos, then follow Route 66, just like in the song. On a really nice day, you can cross over the mountains at Walsenberg, then down to Santa Fe and pick up the route.

The thing is, you’ll need and want flexibility in route planning, and you’ll pick that up with experience.

And the IFR rating is absolutely a plus for any pilot because of the added skills, but I always tell folks that if you’re flying single engine pistons, you’ll cancel just about as many trips as if you were VFR because you still cant do anything about ice or thunderstorms - the big show-stoppers. You’ll find that its hard to go IFR Direct in the mountains because the MEAs will be pretty high, so expect that you’ll still be detouring around the big ranges.

Enjoy the journey - in all respects!

Paul


Thank you, Paul! It's great to speak with you. I've read more of your articles than I can count.

Yes, the southern routes look best. I totally see your point about IFR, and I agree it's really more about flying VFR with flight following than say flying in IMC or at night - I don't think I'd ever be comfortable doing that anywhere near the Rockies!



I used to commute from Oxnard, CA, to Boulder, CO in a C180, doing it VFR. I'd do it at odd intervals except in the winter. In the winter, I could usually choose a decent weather window but given that the flight took me roughly six hours plus a stop, daylight was a factor. I only flew in daylight.

I'd go past Daggett, near the Boulder, NV area, go just north of the Grand Canyon, stop for fuel either at Needles Outpost (their airport is now closed) or something like Page, go north of the La Salle Mountains, just south of Grand Junction, then up the Colorado River/I-70 valley until I got to about Glenwood Springs. Then I'd decide, based on weather and winds, whether to head directly to the Divide near Winter Park or to go via Kremmling and cross the Divide near Cameron Pass.

Your route will be more like Ironflight recommended. It's an easier, safer route but surface winds can be sporty. A nosedragger might well be easier to manage than my old taildragger.

Generally, the main weather issues were high winds, turbulence and afternoon thunderstorm build-up over the Colorado high country.

Going westbound, the main issues would be either winds over the Divide or winds and turbulence west of say Page, as the day went on. For me, turbulence increases my need to pee and I carried a pee bottle - essential equipment.

A BRS would have been a comfort, to be sure. But the terrain was so rugged and remote over much of this, that the bigger problem would have been survival, rescue and recovery. With today's 406 ELTs that's less of an issue but still something to consider. Don't know that I'd have one in an RV, considering the full cost (money, time, weight, external harness, survivability on the ground). The overall impact might be rather high, compared to the probability that it I'd need it and it would ultimately lead to a save.

I had the benefit of good altitude performance and oxygen and regard both as mandatory.

Within the RV airplanes, I'd choose an RV-9 or an RV-10, if I had a choice. However, all would be suitable. The RV-12 would suffer from the low wing loading and relatively low speed in that comparison.

Dave

Hi Dave, thanks for the advice!
Cool to hear from someone who's traveled a CA to CO route. I remember those afternoon thunderstorms in Colorado Springs, they were almost like clockwork through the summer!
The RV-9 was all I was looking at for the longest time, the high lift wing and slower stall speed make it very appealing...

I don't have much advice on the route, but I would vote for a BRS. I'm building one into mine. Depending on where you fly, there aren't many places to land. I've flown from Boulder to Steamboat, Vail, Leadville, etc. in Diamonds and a Cirrus and knowing that the handle is there when you literally cannot see a flat spot to land is at least a little comforting.

If you are going to fly in the mountains, I highly recommend Fletcher Anderson's book "Flying the Mountains", as long as you ignore the irony that he didn't follow his own advice.

Agreed. I always believe "fly the airplane" first and foremost, but given the terrain I'm flying over it's a strong argument to get one. And thanks for the book recommend.
 
Before moving East I was based out of KWJF. Direct will save some time but it will put you in the teens and along some unfriendly terrain with few options. Track interstate 40. L70, Bullhead, Flagstaff to Las Vegas NM, then North from there. More flight time but lower altitudes and lots of options if something comes up.
 
I have flown from my base in Southern California across the Rockies in my RV-7A and in an A36 Bonanza. They are approximately the same in their speed, range, altitude capability, and weather capability.

The flight to DEN is about 700 nm, or 4-5 hours depending on winds. That means I need to plan on a fuel stop, which realistically adds nearly an hour, making the trip 5-6 hours. That's fairly fatiguing.

I have oxygen on board and can go to 17,500' to cross the mountains. It's not such a big deal that the MEAs are high, but rather that the temperatures at the MEAs are below freezing and I'll never fly IFR into visible moisture at cold temperatures. So the weather over the mountains has to be VFR to cross. Also, I wouldn't want to be over the rockies in any weather that caused IFR.

Finally, I'd strongly prefer crossing the Rockies in daylight for weather avoidance and in the hopes of a survivable landing if the engine fails.

In essence, this means that flying CA to CO is too long to do after a workday. So I have to take a day off. The day has to be VFR, which I can't know in advance. So I have to be able to buy an expensive refundable ticket and cancel it, or a cheaper nonrefundable ticket and throw it away, or decide at the last minute whether I'm going or not. The last strategy works for me when I'm going to visit my brother to go skiing, but isn't great for work. Buying refundable tickets is more than I can justify for routine personal travel, and will depend on your employer for business travel. Getting reimbursed for travel by personal aircraft is an issue with many employers as well.

Doing this trip in an RV on occasion is fun (especially when combined with flexible vacation time), but as a regular commute is impractical.

As others have said, a plane that can do this trip reliably is a huge step up in cost from an RV.

David
 
I've flown from San Diego to Boulder several times while my kid was attending CU Boulder. We did a fuel stop at Page, AZ, then basically you follow the Colorado River. We crossed at Rollins Pass. Just be aware of clear air turbulence and rotors over the divide. One time, there was some nasty lenticular clouds along the divide and the winds had picked up. We elected to fly south to Las Vegas, NM, then picked up I-40 to return. It was really choppy most of the way home. The detour added a couple of hours. We refueled on the way back at St. Johns, AZ.
The other times I have crossed the Rockies have mostly been through Albuquerque, NM since we are already near the southern route. We came back from Oshkosh twice via I-80 and stayed at Rawlins, WY, or SLC, UT.
We flew back to Texas and the Big Bend area and that time we followed the I-8/I-10 route, which was a pretty easy way to get across the continental divide.
 
I am based at STS, and depart eastbound at 0-dark thirty to Wendover or Bryce; thence to parts east like Cheyenne, Laramie, Taos or Denver area try to avoid the big bumps. Given your routes, O2 would be important, and courage if you hear auto rough...there is a lot of space in the Basin and Range country to get lost forever. Your mission does not sound like fun: it is great/intoxicating/awesome when the weather is good and convection low, but bad weather and convection can be a bad dream (nothing like 2-3 hours at 2 plus G bumps every 15-20 seconds to beat you up. Sorry, what is worse is that same scenario but with your better half in the plane reminding you about the horrors of turbulence and airsickness) and remove the fun factor. I flew to a schedule (depositions, site inspections, court appearances, trials) over many years in NorCal, and the whole thing was work. Pleasurable work at times, but work. ****, getting from the airport into town in many small places these days is a challenge. It looks to me as if there are good commercial airports at each end, so maybe fly commercial and save the RV for fun (nothing better)? MTCents John N95JF (1986 rv4)

PS: Time to spare, go by air
 
JKoiter99, I wholeheartedly support your idea of flying an RV and even on the route you propose. And, having said that, I'd say "for pleasure only". Yes, there are plenty of RV owners that fly to work. I'm one of them! But please excuse the opinion I'll proffer (we all have them yes I know). Strongly consider the idea of not mixing business schedules and general aviation flying early on in your "career" as a pilot, in territory like this, at these trip lengths. You'll find very quickly if you cannot afford refundable tickets to and from LA on a weekly basis, your budget to operate your aircraft like this will be well in excess of it. PS United allows fully adjustable airline ticket reservations without fees (COS market or any market). In the end, flying GA for work trips is not financially justifiable. Don't get me wrong! It's completely justifiable - but not if you are going to talk money as the justification.

As an example - commute trips inside of 300 miles, in a hospitable environment - and also with EASY access to replacing the trips with a car when the slightest of doubt crept into the risk analysis before each flight. I'd say in that case it's a much more realistic goal to strive for, even though it has it's risks and precautions too. You could probably go for it with a lot of work to get your skills and judgement to a workable level first, then perhaps have a safety pilot ride with you a few times early on.

I've "commuted to work" a lot from Reno to SF Bay area in an RV and it's a measly 180 mile stage length trip. But even as a 30 year professional pilot for my work, I've called those little trips off plenty when the risk analysis was dodgy, from week to week. Every season. It can always be something (fog on the coast, heavy winds in the summer, low clouds in the spring, mountain conditions anytime, etc). This trip only has one single mountain range on the way (a tall one one, but just one range). The complications that arise when operating on the leeward side of a range and crossing mountain ranges raise the threat level exponentially. I always gave myself a lot of time to alter my transportation if needed. I've never saved any "total time" in the end because I always had a ground transpo alternate or an airline flight leaving shortly after I was supposed to leave.. as a backup to my go- no go decision - but the trip is FAR more enjoyable when I get to fly myself. I have friends that don't cross the Sierras and live on an airpark (plane in hangar next to garage). They always make the trip and always save time, and also sank more into avionics to fly in lower coastal fog conditions in their Bonanza than I was ready to spend on a light weight taildragger sport plane. Ideal situation. Over time I realized I started to "push" - flying over the passes more at night, in more dodgy weather and winds... A few times I re-calibrated, reeled my neck in and came up with better self standards so I could keep myself in check. There is no right and wrong until you violate a reg or screw up and "learn something". Let me offer that it's a very thin line from those little sorts of "infractions" nobody saw, before you and your peers and widow, can wish you would have been more careful...

That's what mountains and mountain weather does to the mix. On a longer flight like yours, lost of passes, ranges and deserted areas mean a lot of heavy wind patterns, fatigue from turbulence, and dynamic performance figures leading to more fuel stops or fuel stops that should have been made but thought unnecessary. Each stop increases the risk, each stop dropped will also raise the risk, so it's a Catch 22. Trips of over 250 miles east to west and vv. will likely increase the chance of encountering multiple weather systems, those systems interacting and the "go - no go" decision matrix becomes very dynamic. Trips like this typically overwhelm the capability of the aircraft before overwhelming the capability of a seasoned pilot. (winds, performance, airfield conditions, unforecast weather, unreported system hazards). For a lower experience pilot, knowing when to get off the ride before that happens is the threat. This is where the trip is better managed as an "adventure" and the "go, no-go" decision can be made from a more conservative, comprehensive and objective risk-based approach. The dreaded "get-there-itis" can be much more reliably managed. Believe me, it even happens on a pleasure trip. Add work, family etc, to the equation and it's going to demand a lot of discipline.

So please allow me to also mention that if this type of trip is what motivates you to fly, then by all means, don't lose that dream! It IS entirely possible to get there from here, with the realistic management of expectations (perhaps it ends up being the pleasure trip of a lifetime afterall that you do a few times and then that leads to Mexico flying, Canada, Etc). Do it right, realize the journey getting to the point of being able to make that sort of trip safely, is the destination in itself. It will be transformative, and totally awesome. FLY!

PS - lots of great posts from the RV community, and have another look at what David Harris said (post 11) as well.
 
Excellent Post Eddie P

Very well said Eddie P, David Harris and others, especially Eddie P’s thoughts about private “infractions,” and the “thin line”.

I have had the good fortune to live in CO all my life, and like many others on VAF, to pursue military, airline and general aviation flying.

As I look back on it, one of the conclusions about flying in the Intermountain West that most or all pilots eventually make is that typical light piston singles are basically for pleasure and recreational flying instead of relying on one for transportation to a job, or for any transportation on a hard schedule.

Obviously there are unique situations, but in my opinion the proposed commute to work between SOCAL and KCOS is not one of them, no matter what the experience level of the pilot.

As an example in my own case, over the years, because of all the limitations discussed in previous posts and elsewhere, conditions have not allowed using my light piston single (admittedly a humble Cessna) to even reliably fly between where I live in Western Colo and Colorado Springs for USAFA football games, in what is normally pretty good VFR fall weather.

When I made the decision to build an RV-7, I realized that there is not one trip I cancelled in my Cessna that I would have not also have cancelled in an RV-7 (or any other flavor RV for that matter).

I join with others in encouraging you to pursue your dream, including long cross countries, but not ask more than what the airplane can provide. Every airplane has its limitations, and every one requires a new skill set that is as equally difficult to master as the other, and doing that offers the same satisfaction and rewards to a pilot, no matter what they fly.
 
long cross countries

I've flown, for pleasure, twice from SOCAL to MN. Once along the southern route (that others have suggested to you) and once north through WY. I fly a 6A.

Some random thoughts. The tanks are smaller in the 6, than in a 7, and this will be a factor. With decent reserves I wouldn't be able to make Colorado Springs without two fuel stops. Don't push minimums! Imagine the scenario when you get to the fuel stop and the pump is not operational, or someone has done a gear up and the runway is closed. Or other WX factors.

Book numbers... are just that. The engine will burn more fuel, the airspeed won't be quite as good as expected, etc.

On my recent flight back from MN I bucked headwinds (and turbulence) most of the way. The fun factor runs thin quickly.

I'm sure you've already read, stay away from the mountains if the winds aloft are over 20 at the peaks. And in CO, that is not uncommon. So you will be doing the 'end around'.

No chance of you moving to *western* Colorado? The picture would look better (still lots of issues, but better).

The RV is a great ride, for fun, or for those shorter hops. I loved flying to Phoenix for lunch w/friends and back the same day. Would have been painful in a car.
 
I'm based in Durango (KDRO) and have flown my RV-8 out to SoCal, NorCal and the PNW several times. It's a spectacularly beautiful area to fly over. But I agree with the consensus regarding the practicality of commuting from the Front Range to SoCal in an RV. Weather is the boss, especially on long xctry flights, and it has it's own schedule. Rarely will its schedule be compatible with your work schedule. It may be fine in SoCal or the Front Range, but the probability that it will be fine in both places and everywhere in between is not high. Now that I'm retired, I have the luxury of being able to wait until all the stars align so that I can get out to the coast in a quick 4-5 hrs with good weather all the way.

This past summer the flying conditions between CO and the West Coast have been poor due to smoke from all the wildfires in CA, OR and WA which persisted through the summer and into the fall. Who wants to fly through 1,100 miles of smoke?
 
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