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Tempted to Build

Aesir

I'm New Here
I've been reading everything I can about the RV-14 recently, and am very interested in this aircraft. Until now, I've always thought the RV-7a would be the best fit, but the RV-14a seems to offer better view, more space, more usable baggage area, higher useful load, design improvements (i.e. landing gear), lower build time estimates, all without sacrificing aerobatic capability and almost a negligible amount of extra fuel burn to pay for it all (albeit a little bit higher acquisition cost). I keep seeing the RV-14 marketed specifically to "big people," which doesn't exactly describe me (6'0" 175 lbs), but all those features seem equally applicable to any size pilot.

All that said, I've got a lot of trepidation about building an airplane. I'm not really scared about the technical aspect of it--it's more the time commitment. I'm not crazy about about a project that is going to drag on for 5 years. 1-2 years, fine, but 5 years is a long time to be building. It seems like most of the build logs I see online easily reach 5 years, and 2 years or less is the minority. I think I would really enjoy the building process, but also need to be realistic about taking on such a project with a full time job. I also don't have a great space for it. I would have to make significant modifications to my house to build a workshop, or find a space other than my home.

I signed up for an introductory class at EAA SportAir in Corona, CA. It's a 2.5 hr class on "What's Involved in Building a Kit Airplane." Hopefully, I'll get a better sense for everything involved.

Any other Southern California builders out there?
 
To be honest, I think that 2 years or less is pretty ambitious, even with the faster build of the -14. The quick-build option would go a long ways in cutting down build time, but is not yet available for the -14. The QB option would also increase the build cost substantially. If that is not a factor, and time is, I would suggest one of two things: buy a flying, similar airplane (such as a 7A), or buy somebody else's uncompleted project. In either case, you would be looking at something like a 7 rather than a 14, as the 14 is so new.

This is not to say you couldn't build a 14 in two years, but you would need to be VERY disciplined to do it along with a full time job. To give you a comparison, my job allows me to spend about 3-4 days a week working full-time on the plane, and I am looking at apr 3 years for a low-build 9A. Many of the longer-term builds are those who work a few hours at night and weekends when they can. Family and other things always get in the way, and time drags on...If you end up building somewhere other than your house, that will also increase build time a good bit.

Unless you are convinced you need what the 14 offers, if you want to fly soon, definitely consider a near-finished kit or flying airplane.

Just my thoughts...

Chris
 
What Chris said. You really have to be in love with the idea of building the plane, because for less money, you can buy someone else's beautifully crafted RV.

I'm building a QB -9A, and I believe I'm on track to finish about a year from now (I'm 6 months in at the moment). I'm convinced that to complete it in a timely fashion, you've got to have immediate access to it (in your garage, whatever) so you can work on it weeknights. Typically, I put in 3 hours every weeknight and tinker a bit on weekends. Gotta have some time to keep the golf game sharp! The QB version has to save at least a year, maybe two of construction for not a lot of money, in the grand scheme of things.

I live nearby, so if you want to check it out, PM me.
 
I second what Chris said.
My wife reminds me that there are two forms of time; Normal time and plane building time. I always seem to underestimate the time the next section will take. She no longer even bothers asking! Two years is quite ambitious and may be possible for an experienced builder, but what you'll notice is that there is a learning curve with everything you do. For example the "left side" of something may take four hours, while the "right side" takes a half an hour after learning on the left side.
If time is an issue, consider Chris' advice and either purchase a completed one or someone's project. Building offers its rewards, but your time expectations may be pushing it. Best of luck which ever way you decide.

Richard Rivera
RV7A
Ormond Beach, FL
 
It all depends on your skill level and mods you make.

There is a member of this forum who built an RV-9 slow build, including assembling an ECi kit engine in a year and a half.

He knew how to rivet, read drawings, and had the tools. Because of his pas experience working for Boeing, he didn't have to call Van's every week or this forum a couple of times a day. Even more impressive is he didn't bugger up partsn like I did.
 
Tolerance level of wife/girlfriend/SO is a huge factor as well. The best possible situation, if you're married, is to get your wife involved in the project. Marriage partner = rivet bucking partner! :)

Perseverance is of paramount importance. Every day at work, I jot down two or three small things I want to accomplish that night on a Post-It note. I usually accomplish half of what's on the list, but it keeps me focused. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed when I think of the project in its entirety--but then I go back to my Post-It note system, and all is right with the world.
 
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Same shoes

I'm in your exact same shoes. I've been lurking for a while and I am leaning towards a 14.
I'm also taking a two day class, but mine is specific to Vans RV building and is at Flabob in riverside. It's in the first couple weeks of December
I am also planning to take a trip up to Oregon with my Son to take a test flight in their 14.
There are lots of people around here that will take you on a flight in their RV, and I'm also going to take them up on that. But I would like to fly the 14 before I buy the kit.
Let me know if you are interested in going. Haven't decided to drive or fly.
PM me
I'm in Upland
 
I understand that "individual results may vary" but this is from Vans website:

An RV-14 standard kit should take 1100-1200 hours. The Light Sport RV-12 takes only 800 hours until it?s ready to fly. The larger RV-10 might take 2000. As a rough approximation, based on builder reports we estimate about 2000-2200 "person-hours" for an RV-3 or RV-4, but significantly less time is involved in the matched-hole kits used to construct subsequent designs. Our estimate for the RV-7/8/9 airplanes is about 1400-1500 hours.


It seems to me that the -14 should be a pretty quick build if one keeps at it. What opinions do you guys have on these estimates?
 
Build time

Welcome
There's no way I will be done in the typical Vans estimated man hours but I am priming inside and it does add time.
+1 on the wife=build partner. So important. Sweetie is much more precise with the gun. Dents are all my fault!:eek:
Spend some time reading builder blogs. It will give you an idea of the time and commitment involved.
 
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I think the estimates are pretty optimistic, and assume somebody who knows what they are doing already. If it's your first time, you will probably spend almost as time researching, thinking, and fixing mistakes as you will building. I don't think that's an exaggeration, either. I spend a lot of time on other build sites, this site, and just staring at plans, before I put anything together.

I'm pretty sure I could build a 2nd RV in around the estimated time. First one, no way.

Chris
 
RV-14 Projected Build Time

I'm 1.5 years into the build (started 4/13) of an RV-14. Have just over 800 hours, with wings at 90% done, vertical stabilizer, rudder, horizontal stabilizer and rudder complete, and will start on the aft fuselage next week. I think there's guys who've completed what I have with only 1/2 to 2/3 of that number but those guys are previous builders. I would think 800-900 for wings and empennage would be pretty typical for first time builders.

Nobody's started the fuselage kit yet, although the first ones are slated for delivery in the next week or so. Supposedly it doesn't require much if any fab of parts, everything's pre-cut, pre-punched, etc. Still I can't imagine it would be much less than 150-200 hours, just looking at the extent of the structure in the photos of the factory build.

Finish kit is a complete unknown, but the canopy and framework is supposed to be pre-cut/punched so none of the ritual agony for that element. Avionics are supposed to be packaged like in the -12, but in talking with Dynon/AFS and Garmin guys at Oshkosh this year, nobody had any particulars to share, so don't know how extensive/complete those will be, whether there will be option, etc. Again, it's a guess, but I would think 150-200 hours for Finishes and Avionics (if kitted) would be low end. Then there's firewall forward and engine, interiors, paint.

Therefore, I think 1400 hours is a more likely average build time, assuming you don't decide to do something crazy like try to put 540 into it. Perhaps the QB route will get you there in 1000-1200 hours, but again, I don't see how that's going to be available until late next year, at best.
 
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I'll just echo what everyone else is saying:
Build because you want to build, not just to get an airplane. If you enjoy the work then it doesn't matter how long it takes! If you don't enjoy the work it will become painful.

Getting the spouse/SO on board is important, too.
 
Thanks for all the quick and thoughtful responses. To be clear, I would not describe the times quoted in my original post as "expectations." Let's put it this way... I know enough to know that I don't know what I don't know.

I certainly spotted the note on Van's website estimating 1100 hours for an RV-14. But I also understand there is an endless amount of variables that could affect that. I get the impression from the builder logs available online that most people with a full time job stretch out to around 5 years, and that's with no shortage of dedication. There haven't been any RV-14 completions, so there aren't as many examples of how the new streamlined kit affects the time to completion.

My thinking was that I could order the empennage kit, put that together, and then evaluate if it is feasible to continue. By the time I get done, perhaps a quickbuild wing kit would be available or close to it. But before I did any of that, I would need to do some more research and figure out my shop situation.

At the end of the day, the buying advice might be best. It just seems so fun to build in one sense, but potentially too daunting in another. I'm also a little concerned about how to ensure solid build-quality when buying, and properly maintaining something like that without the thorough education of building it.

Doug, it would be really cool to check out your project since you're so close.

SoCal Flyer--I was looking at the same class. I might have to sign up if this little intro deal goes well.
 
Yes, come by and check it out. I'm working on it most weeknights from about 6:30 to 9:30. PM me and I'll send you my address. No hurry…whenever.

With an already built plane, I'm sure you can talk a VAFer into doing a pre-purchase inspection. Someone who's built one will know where all the "Achilles' heel" spots are.
 
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Time estimates....

The posted time estimates have always been given in the context of building a basic legal to fly airplane. No options or modifications, no 5 step corrosion protection / primer process, etc. Any time spent outside of building a basic airplane would be considered extra.
True, few RV's are built "basic" but because of the wide variability, it would be impossible to estimate a real world build.
The RV-12 estimate of 800-900 hrs has ended up being quite close to the average.
My personal estimate of the RV-14 is 1200-1400 hrs. That would apply "if" no modifications are made, and all kits are purchased....
The entire design is based on integrated systems design... engine, avionics and electrical will be a quick and easy install as long as one of the kit supplied systems is used.
 
My personal estimate of the RV-14 is 1200-1400 hrs.

Do you have a breakdown of your total hour estimate broken down by kit or by chapter? It would be very helpful to be able to break down the build by percentages and estimate progress using that as I'm building.
 
The time commitment is a real issue. I thought about that long and hard before I started my project. My kids were moving into the post High School and College phase of life, so I was much less busy with family related things on most weekends and evenings. I really enjoyed the build process and it is very rewarding when you get to the finish line and can say "I built that". Even with a QB, you can have that satisfaction, since you will get plenty of build time on other less repetitive tasks.

I purposely didn't keep track of my build hours. I did put in most evenings and lots of long weekends. I basically gave up watching TV and haven't missed it since (USC football and Formula 1 are exceptions). There were also stretches of no building due to travel and other family commitments. Paying as I went also kept slowing me down especially near the last years when it really gets expensive with buying avionics, prop, engine, etc. I set a goal of 5 years for my slow build and I was able to get the airplane flying in about 4.5 years. The first year of building I was pretty gung-ho and got the empennage and wings done in the first 8 months. The fuselage took well over a year, but lots of that time was deciding on what to do about an engine and avionics. The RV-14 kit provides all of this, so that will definitely help a lot. When the QB fuselage becomes available this will make an RV-14 a really easy airplane to build.

PM me if you want to meet at Ramona and go flying. I plan on being at Aircraft Spruce's customer appreciation event in Corona on 10/4 (weather permitting) to pick up some items and get a free lunch.
 
First time 10 builder

I was planning on a 5-7 year build on a 10. Figured the tail would take 12-18 months. Then I would decide on quick build or not. After completing the tail kit in 6 months decided to go slow build for the budget. I initially built because I wanted the plane and knew that I could build it. During the build I found I really enjoyed the building as well, and would "find" time to build. Finished the build and self-painting in 3 years. Rv-10 was 2200 hrs first time builder and about 300-400 were mods from the plans. Then 500 hours to paint it. Had never painted before. Already wanting to build again. Had a 7 and 9 yr old when I started the build (now 10 and 12).

Smaller kit with minimal mods and not painting yourself can get done in 2-3 years if you are motivated and enjoying the build. I'm sure I could do a second 10 in 2-2.5 years
 
Question: What build time documentation is required?
I was under the impression that you had to document your time for the 51% rule.
 
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I understand that "individual results may vary" but this is from Vans website:

An RV-14 standard kit should take 1100-1200 hours. The Light Sport RV-12 takes only 800 hours until it?s ready to fly. The larger RV-10 might take 2000. As a rough approximation, based on builder reports we estimate about 2000-2200 "person-hours" for an RV-3 or RV-4, but significantly less time is involved in the matched-hole kits used to construct subsequent designs. Our estimate for the RV-7/8/9 airplanes is about 1400-1500 hours.


It seems to me that the -14 should be a pretty quick build if one keeps at it. What opinions do you guys have on these estimates?

For a first time builder and/or if you're priming, add 50% and you should be in the ballpark.
 
This brings up other questions. Are the the quickbuild kits interiors primed? Why is priming considered an extra step? Do most builders prime?
 
The Priming Question

After reading all of the background info and opinions, I decided to prime mating surfaces (e.g. rib flanges, rivet lines on the inside of skins, etc.) only, using self-etching primer. I prepare surfaces with a Scotch-brite pad, then clean with a solvent. For the skins, I remove bands of the plastic protective masking using a fine tip soldering iron and a straightedge. Takes time but cuts down on the amount of primer used. I use mostly rattle can (have used both SEM and Sherwin Williams 988) but also bought a quart of SEM brand and used the gun on some of the larger pieces. Rattle cans work well for doing the smaller parts and you can be pretty efficient with the paint if you prep all the pieces in each section (i.e. all of the rudder pieces) and spray them all at the same time. I live in the rarified, low humidity air in Colorado, so I felt this was the best blend of time, cost and protection. If I lived on the coast or the humid Midwest I would have thought longer about the full prime process. Any priming approach adds lots of hours, mainly due to the prep of the pieces before you put on the primer.
 
What Chris said. You really have to be in love with the idea of building the plane, because for less money, you can buy someone else's beautifully crafted RV.

With all due respect... Meh.

Don't get me wrong, I hear that all the time. However, if you look at prices on completed RV 7's and look at what people are saying they spent on building theirs, there doesn't seem to be any discount. In fact a good case can be made for the opposite.

I'm certainly not in love with building. I have come to enjoy it more than I thought I would, but I think I will be able to resist the temptation to build again. I don't finance toys, and I know there's no way I could accumulate the cash in the bank to buy someone else's RV. How would one justify sitting on $100K when there is a mortgage to be paid? Even if I could, someone else's airplane would be at best an approximation of what I would want and not exactly what I want.

This way I build exactly what I want, on my own schedule, paid for piecemeal on my own schedule, and for less than the cost of a completed plane - of that I am quite certain.

If I had an extra hundred grand laying around, I could go buy a nice Mooney or some other spam can and a fuel tanker full of avgas. But since I'm a cheap SOB who wants to fly, I'm building. Besides, I have nothing better to do at the moment.
 
However, if you look at prices on completed RV 7's and look at what people are saying they spent on building theirs, there doesn't seem to be any discount. In fact a good case can be made for the opposite.

If I could buy one significantly cheaper than I could build, I would buy--no question. There are only two problems with that--it's harder to get exactly what I would want, but I could get over that with a decent discount and saved time. The bigger problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of a discount. There's obviously a lot of hours that go into building these, so I get peoples' desire to recoup some of that time, but it's just hard to ascribe as much value to a non-professional builder's time. Especially for someone that is fairly attracted to the idea of building themselves in the first place.

For side-by-sides, the least expensive seems to be RV-6/6A's. But even then, I've seen everything from $30k to $100k--all over the map. RV-7/7A's tend to be $80k-$110k--there's one on the classifieds right now for $120k; beautiful airplane, but that's a good chunk of change. RV-10's seems to go for pretty high prices; $175k-$200k. Some of the seemingly best deals I've seen have been for RV-9/9A's; pretty modern avionics, nice looking builds for around $60k, which would be the most tempting to buy. Only time will tell for the RV-14/14A, but at this point, the only option is to build.
 
Regarding the priming issue. I would suggest that you test any product you use with a paper towel dipped in Avgas. Most rattle can finishes can be easily removed with 100LL. As fuel does get spilled on wings occasionally having the wrong primer is at the least, is a waste of time, and at the worst could add to corrosion issues. If you must prime, then use a proper two part epoxy sourced from a legitimate paint shop.
 
I've been reading everything I can about the RV-14 recently, and am very interested in this aircraft. Until now, I've always thought the RV-7a would be the best fit, but the RV-14a seems to offer better view, more space, more usable baggage area, higher useful load, design improvements (i.e. landing gear), lower build time estimates, all without sacrificing aerobatic capability and almost a negligible amount of extra fuel burn to pay for it all (albeit a little bit higher acquisition cost). I keep seeing the RV-14 marketed specifically to "big people," which doesn't exactly describe me (6'0" 175 lbs), but all those features seem equally applicable to any size pilot.

All that said, I've got a lot of trepidation about building an airplane. I'm not really scared about the technical aspect of it--it's more the time commitment. I'm not crazy about about a project that is going to drag on for 5 years. 1-2 years, fine, but 5 years is a long time to be building. It seems like most of the build logs I see online easily reach 5 years, and 2 years or less is the minority. I think I would really enjoy the building process, but also need to be realistic about taking on such a project with a full time job. I also don't have a great space for it. I would have to make significant modifications to my house to build a workshop, or find a space other than my home.

I signed up for an introductory class at EAA SportAir in Corona, CA. It's a 2.5 hr class on "What's Involved in Building a Kit Airplane." Hopefully, I'll get a better sense for everything involved.

Any other Southern California builders out there?

If you decide not to build or would rather fly sooner, check this out. I am 6'4" and built this to fit. The rudder pedals are designed to fit in four different spots with a very quick change.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=118027
 
Question: What build time documentation is required?
I was under the impression that you had to document your time for the 51% rule.

You need enough documentation to demonstrate that you built the majority of the aircraft. But there is no requirement to log the actual time. In my experience DARs seem to be happy with just lots of photos (some with you in them).

In my case I did keep a daily logbook. But I made no effort to keep track of hours. In all honesty, I spent a significant amount of time standing in the garage waiving my arms around, or trying to visualize the best way to hold a part while I riveted, etc. A large number of hours that technically were not "building" but rather "thinking about the best way to build".
 
I made no effort to keep track of hours. In all honesty, I spent a significant amount of time standing in the garage waiving my arms around, or trying to visualize the best way to hold a part while I riveted, etc. A large number of hours that technically were not "building" but rather "thinking about the best way to build".

Same here, with the exception of the arm waiving;)

I have almost as much "sit-and-think-about-it time" as actual building time.
 
Same here, with the exception of the arm waiving;)

I have almost as much "sit-and-think-about-it time" as actual building time.

I'm definitely an arm waiver!

Back to the OPs thread: one more thing not covered in the time estimates, are things that are "off plans" - either your personal ideas, or things not covered in the plans at all (like electrical systems). One thing tends to interact with everything else, so the time spent doing modifications or no-plans stuff can grow almost without limit. I chose to do my own from-scratch electrical work on some things - trim relay deck, cockpit lighting dimmer, intercom. The parts cost for these things was very low, so I saved a few bucks, but the extra time involved was pretty substantial.
 
There's also the "afterglow" period where you stand around and admire your work for 10 minutes. Or fidget and contemplate whether you should re-do something that's not quite up to your standards. :)

Also, building things like workbenches and other fixtures, jigs & templates can devour time pretty easily, although there's less of this with the -14.
 
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Well, I took one more step in my exploratory process and signed up for EAA Sportair's Sheet Metal Basics class held in Corona this weekend. Should be fun regardless of which way I decide to go.
 
Sport Air Sheet metal

Well, I took one more step in my exploratory process and signed up for EAA Sportair's Sheet Metal Basics class held in Corona this weekend. Should be fun regardless of which way I decide to go.

Excellent. I took that one and when I went I was told that course does more stuff than is required for the 14. You have to learn how to do layout and find centers and stuff. At the end of the two days hopefully you have a miniature wing and flap and an access panel. Nice trophy and good comraderie. I think it was worth my time and money.
 
My experience on building time. No previous airplane building experience, but did a sheet metal workshop over a weekend before starting. 9A quickbuild with several minor modifications (like throttle quadrant instead of standard knobs), done and flying in 16 months. Approximate build time 1100 hours (but I was not very careful about logging time) on weekends and evenings, not counting scratching my head and other parts. I do know how to read plans and such, and have built a lot of other stuff, which definitely helped keep the scratching to a minimum. I think the key was focusing on the project, plus help from others occasionally (Julia ran the rivet gun for hard-to get-to-places). Take any advantage of the local knowledge of building you can. Vans instructions are among the best out there.

Greg
 
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