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A few more newbie questions

propsync

Well Known Member
Hi Group, getting started on the spar j channels and already have a few questions. I'm kind of wondering if these questions were addressed somewhere in the vans philosophy that I missed or if this is just a case of normal first timer questions.

So here are my questions.

1.) I have to fabricate jchannel. The kit comes with 2 different sizes, 6' and 8'. I need to make a 73 9/32" piece and a 46 1/8" piece. So I measured out the piece and used my sharpie to draw the cutting line. I cut with a cutting disc leaving about 1/8" before the line, the rest I would fine tune with my bench grinder and 3M wheel. This seemed to work ok. Is this inline with how you guys would tackle the j channel?

2.) Its not mentioned anywhere, but I also used the 3M wheel to remove slight deburrs from the vans factory cut. Should I just assume do this kind of thing going forward with all vans cut parts?

3.) The larger and shorter vans jchannel overlap in the middle by several inches. This being the case, why is it so important to cut the jchannels to such exacting standards (aka 9/32")?

4.) I have jchannel clamped in and am ready to match drill the holes using a #40 drill bit. The drill bit does not fit through the holes in the spar. Is it assumed that I will be making the holes in the spar bigger by drilling through them? This I definitely wanted to double check with someone as it is the spar were talking about.

5.) After the holes are drilled, should I go ahead and deburr the holes in both the spar and the jchannel correct? Doesn't really say so again I'm just wondering if I'm missing a more general set of instructions that says yes always deburr drilled holes.

6.) Finally, the spar comes pre-treated for corrosion. However, seeing #4 above, if I drill with #40 bit, I will be slightly enlarging the holes, do these holes need to be re-treated for corrosion?

I don't know if I'm just over a little over eager with all this or if these are legitimate questions so could use a little guidance.
 
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1. Yes. Exactly
2. Yes.
3. The overlap lines up with where the two pieces of wing skin overlap later on. Your instincts were correct that there must be something to the fact that they called out measurement to the 32nd
4. You're correct. Most of the holes in your kit will need to be final drilled (or match drilled in assembly) to the final size. With the 14 wing, most of the skins are final drilled but most of the structural parts so far have to be final drilled/debured. I think you'll see that those holes are a little small for an AD3 rivet as they are.
5. You got it. Deburring is one of those things you figure out pretty quickly what is good enough. Don't be too agressive, you can easily do too much. but every hole on the plane needs to be evaluated and deburred if needed whether you drilled it or they did. run your finger over it. If you can feel something protrude, give it a turn or two with the deburring tool.
6. Read ahead some. You'll see later that you will countersink several holes in the spar for nutplates. After you do that, the instructions tell you to prime the spar to take care of the anodizing you removed. I just used rattle can primer and it gets down into the holes good enough.

You're doing fine. Take your time and have fun. Most mistakes can be repaired or parts replaced without too much expense. It costs $12 to ship a single J-Channel to TX...ask me how I know...

The spar is a bit of a special case...be sure you know what you're doing when you cut into it...especially when it comes time for the countersinking. It's expensive. Be sure to practice and get your countersink cutter set up right on some scrap.
 
6. Read ahead some.


I can not tell you how many mistakes I have made that would have been prevented by those three words. Really read ahead....alot ahead. You will save yourself hours of time by not having to correct little mistakes.
 
So I'm on to page 11-03 step 1.

This step calls for "final drill" of all the .094 holes that were not "match drilled". Is final drill essentially the same as match drill with the exception that there is no piece of aluminum behind the hole? Essentially does it mean just drill the remaining .094 holes in the flanges with the #40 bit?

Next, it says to final drill the .094 nutplate attach rivet holes near the tip of the main spar assembly. From what I can see, they are referring to the aft face of the spar and not the flanges. However, these holes are already large enough where the #40 bit just slides through them, so I can't see anything needing to be done here??

Then it goes on to say final drill the nutplate attach rivet holes at the root of the main spar, again from what I can see they are talking about the face of the aft spar (at the root) not the flanges. In this case, the holes are there as well at the proper size, but there is material below that so I'm thinking that is what they want me to drill, but shouldn't this be called match drill and not final drill if my explanation from above is correct?

or maybe final drill means something else...?
 
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Final drill just means to drill the hole to the final size. Most the time they use this term when you're only drilling through one piece but I understand your confusion on the root end of the spar. I'm sure they just intend it to mean that you don't have to assemble anything before drilling since it's already assembled.

Let me recommend a book for you. EAA's Sheet Metal Building Basics is a good intro to a lot of the terms and basics. I read it while my wings were on the way but I think I did it in one sitting.

Also, I did the EAA SportAir class on RV building. It was useful primarily in giving confidence. Your local EAA chapter may also have someone that can come hang out with you for a couple of hours while you build.

You're doing great. Better to ask questions than make mistakes and before long you'll find out that you've got this.
 
Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have more questions tomorrow :)

I have Aircraft Structural Technician by Dale Hurst, I'll have a look at the book you recommended.
 
Build sites

Also have a look at other build sites. You will get a lot of useful tips from the guys who have built many times and have great experience...they are in here, just search.

BUT, I also think you can get just as much from newbie builders. If they have documented their screw-ups, you can surely benefit from it.
 
Also have a look at other build sites. You will get a lot of useful tips from the guys who have built many times and have great experience...they are in here, just search.

BUT, I also think you can get just as much from newbie builders. If they have documented their screw-ups, you can surely benefit from it.

Actually, I just spent the last hour reviewing your website along with KC and Marks. Pictures are worth a 1000 words!
 
Look very carefully at the J-channel picture!

Don't do what I did. There are some holes next to the nut plate holes that do not get drilled until you flip the J-channel. You have to look closely to see it on the plans.
 
There were several holes in my RV14 wings that I was supposed to drill to final size, but were already at the final size also. No worries, this kit is a little more advanced! I used a #40 and #30 piloted reamer in most places that required final hole drilling instead of a drill bit. I only used a drill bit when I had to drill a virgin hole in something. The reamer makes a perfectly round hole and leaves practically no burr. Most of these burrs could be removed with my finger or a light pass with a scotch brite pad. The skins are all pretty much punched to final size, the substructure is not. Anywhere you find a burr or a rough edge, remove it or make it smooth, even if its a factory end, if for no other reason than you won't cut yourself on it.
 
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Don't do what I did. There are some holes next to the nut plate holes that do not get drilled until you flip the J-channel. You have to look closely to see it on the plans.

I caught that on the illustration and have made it past that point already, but thanks.
 
Hi group,

I thought I would just add to this thread instead of starting a new one. Just about every step is a new experience for me :)

So I'm on to 11-03 step 2, the countersinking. Riveting is a few steps away yet but I wanted to know what you guys were using for riveting such tiny rivets on the flanges. I have the following available to me.

3X rivet gun which I'm guessing is way to much power.

I have a pneumatic squeezer. I think it was KC's website that mentioned the use of it, but only on the upper and not lower?? Wasn't sure why. I have the following yokes and parts available for it. 3" pneumatic yoke, adjustable set holder, thin squeezer cup set, flat sqz sets, 2.5" flange nose yoke.

Thanks.
 
I was trying various things out back then. Honestly, I've kind of settled on the hand squeezer over my pneumatic squeezer. My pneumatc squeezer was quite used off eBay and has issues so YMMV.

Your 3X gun is a fine tool for AD3 rivets (that's what I have), turn the air down to 40 psi or so...practice like crazy until you feel comfortable. I think I drove about 200 rivets on practice stock from Home Depot before I used the gun on the plane.

Use whatever you're most comfortable with. I squeeze when possible because its quicker and more consistent.
 
Hi Group,

So tonight I had an hour and thought I would start on the countersinking of the spar flanges for the nutplates.

I did a little practice on a scrap to get the depth set. I only did two hole as you will see in the picture. My fingernail just ever so slightly catches on the rivet head so I'm not sure if I should go a little deeper or not since they are not actually riveted in. I think if they were riveted they might be perfectly flush, my hand is just not holding them square. However, I did read that there should be a very small ring visible though around the rivet head. Let me know what you think. Also, although I couldn't see it with the eye, it appears the hole has "chatter" if I have the term right. The bit is new so maybe I am drilling to fast?

ra9gz5.jpg


1jwzn4.jpg
 
Are you using the air drill to countersink? If so I'd recommend a slower, cordless drill, which could help with the chatter. Also, once the hole is countersunk to the right depth, if you hold the cage steady and let the cutter spin freely an extra second or so I find that cleans up the hole a bit. I aim for perfectly flush except for on the fuel tank skins where there will be proseal underneath the rivet head, as well as countersunk holes where dimples will nest on top. I go a bit deeper there. I keep the cutter oiled up every few holes also, for what it's worth.

Chris
 
Are you using the air drill to countersink? If so I'd recommend a slower, cordless drill, which could help with the chatter. Also, once the hole is countersunk to the right depth, if you hold the cage steady and let the cutter spin freely an extra second or so I find that cleans up the hole a bit. I aim for perfectly flush except for on the fuel tank skins where there will be proseal underneath the rivet head, as well as countersunk holes where dimples will nest on top. I go a bit deeper there. I keep the cutter oiled up every few holes also, for what it's worth.

Chris

+1 for slower cordless drill

And +1 for a drop of oil every few holes.

I bet those things fix your chatter

As far as how deep. Look to see if you're countersinking for a rivet or for skin. If its for a rivet, make it flush. There will be skin sitting on top of that when assembled. If its for skin, I go about 5 clicks below flush. Make yourself a little test piece by dimpling a small piece of .032 skin. It should sit flush with no play.
 
When you get to the large countersinks for the screws, you'll need something to back up the pilot of the CS bit. If the material is thin enough that the countersink goes all the way through and you lose the pilot hole, chatter is practically guaranteed. I made a backup plate out of some scrap 0.125 aluminum to clamp in place under the spar flange for just this purpose:
FP28042012A0007E.jpg


Jig in use:
FP28042012A0007F.jpg


I had to locate several pilot holes around the jig to fit all spar nutplate locations.

FP28042012A0007G.jpg


I use an air drill with no oil and get mirror finish countersinks every time. I do have (what I consider to be) a better quality cage with ball bearings as opposed to the ones with bushings.
 
When you get to the large countersinks for the screws, you'll need something to back up the pilot of the CS bit. If the material is thin enough that the countersink goes all the way through and you lose the pilot hole, chatter is practically guaranteed.

I agree... unless you follow the construction manual and first install nutplates for the cutter to pilot in. It works quite well and saves a lot of time not having to reposition an extra piloting tool.
Not using excessive speed is the key to success.

Regardless of how you do it, the speed of an air drill is a bit excessive for this diameter of a cut, especially on the hard anodizing if no lube is used.
 
Hi group,

So I'm ready to move on to riveting the nutplates to the flanges. I'll be using the pnuematic squeezer.

Do you have any tips on adjusting the squeezer? Or do I just have to do a few rivets to get the right setting?

If I squeeze a rivet and its not enough, can I re-squeeze it or must it come out?

I tried a few test rivets in some scrap aluminum, but I don't have anything the exact thickness of the spar flange.

I do have the measuring tool.

Thanks.
 
If you don't have the adjustable set for the squeezer, get it. They are really expensive for what you get, but it is worth every dollar.

Here's how to adjust it. Get the right yoke on for the job - I have the longeron, 3" w/ hole and a 4" no hole. Each gets used in the build.
Get the right rivet sets for the type of rivet on the right side so you can access the rivets with the squeezer. Sometimes you need to switch sides to make it work.
Pull the trigger (away from the pieces you are trying to rivet) and set the initial gap to just slightly over the thickness of the pieces you are trying to rivet. Back it off a turn and set the first rivet. Use the gauge and adjust up as needed. You can always squeeze it further (within a reasonable number) to get it adjusted to spec. Repeat on the rest of the rivets.
It gets easy to judge after a while. If you over squeeze it, drill it out, back off the depth and try it again.
I have noticed that after a long series, you might have to dial it back in as the adjustable set can rotate and back off from the original position.
 
If you don't have the adjustable set for the squeezer, get it. They are really expensive for what you get, but it is worth every dollar.

Here's how to adjust it. Get the right yoke on for the job - I have the longeron, 3" w/ hole and a 4" no hole. Each gets used in the build.
Get the right rivet sets for the type of rivet on the right side so you can access the rivets with the squeezer. Sometimes you need to switch sides to make it work.
Pull the trigger (away from the pieces you are trying to rivet) and set the initial gap to just slightly over the thickness of the pieces you are trying to rivet. Back it off a turn and set the first rivet. Use the gauge and adjust up as needed. You can always squeeze it further (within a reasonable number) to get it adjusted to spec. Repeat on the rest of the rivets.
It gets easy to judge after a while. If you over squeeze it, drill it out, back off the depth and try it again.
I have noticed that after a long series, you might have to dial it back in as the adjustable set can rotate and back off from the original position.

Thanks, yes I do have the adjustable set.
 
Hi Group,

I rivet'd my first nutplate. I was wondering if you could have a look at the pictures for input.

What I didn't realize is that the squeezer action is not an all or nothing. I can slowly push the trigger and make the action slower and stop until I'm ready. As you can see in the image, I had the squeezer slide off by not going slow with it. Other than the slip off the rivet head, does the set look ok?

Thanks
Tom

14o1tlw.jpg


m9rosj.jpg
 
One thing you may consider doing is taking a Sportair basic metal course. There are going to be classes in Orlado on September 14. They are very educational and will give lots of info which will greatly increase your abilities and confidence.
 
On nutplates , the rivet is there only to hole the nutplate in place when no screw is installed and to stop it from rotating. There is no structural load on the rivets to be worried about in this application. Once the screw is installed the rivets could be removed and the nutplate would still do it's job. Mind you if you were to remove the rivets and then remove the screw all you would have is a falling nut (just making a point).
 
One thing you may consider doing is taking a Sportair basic metal course. There are going to be classes in Orlado on September 14. They are very educational and will give lots of info which will greatly increase your abilities and confidence.

Good advice for any new builder that doesn't have an experienced builder near by to help them along.

The other one that I tell lots of beginners (and I think it is mentioned in Section 5)... Never, ever, do any task/process or use a new tool, that you have not done before, on your flight article parts without first practicing it on some scrap aluminum.
Sometimes it is even beneficial for beginners to do this if they haven't done a particular process for a few weeks.

Following this one piece of advice can save you hundreds (even thousands) of dollars spent on replacement parts.
 
I notice that it is called out to use a slightly smaller counter sink bit to counter sink. It looks like in the plans that the counter sinking enlarges the hole because right now the screws won't fit in the holes. I take it that Longranger uses the template--to keep the bit centered. True? Or does the depth the bit slides into the hole act to center it as the plans state?
 
Do people primer the rivet holes for the nutplates on the spar? After putting the nutplates in place and moving on tot he next section is says to prime the areas where the integrity of spar surface was compromised. Why not the rivet holes.

The other confusing thing is that the plans say to use a screw as guide to put in the nut plates. The screws don't fit through the holes. I assume that you just rivet the plates in place with no screws.
 
If the proper size screw does not fit through the hole in the spar, it needs to be reamed or drilled to the proper size before riveting the nut plate. That screw will have to go through there eventually, and if you try to drill it after the nut plate is on you have the very real risk of damaging the nut plate. Ask me how I know. Probably a way to do this safely but much easier to make sure the bolt fits first...

Regarding priming inside the rivet hole, I think it's a matter of how anal you want to be. There should be no way for moisture to get in there, but I am sure people have tried to prime there as well. You do need to prime the countersinks.
 
Based on the pictures in the plans, it appears that CS the holes will allow the screw to fit through the hole. Maybe I am wrong.

Thanks
Ken
 
Not looking at plans now

But I think the CS is for a skin dimple, screw goes through skin and into the nut plate.

Tom, it looks like you are attaching the nutplates with the spar horizontal. I tried that and it requires you to support the entire weight of the squeezer, nutplate in place, plus 2 rivets (can't twist the nutplate once the rivet has been squeezed). So, I mounted the spar vertically, using a 2x4 clamped on each end to secure it to my workbench. I think I have a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS17b0lYbKo

The video describes the HPRS squeezer (now called the squeeze box), but shows my method. In practice, I place the rivets, hold the plate with one thumb(make DARN sure you have clearance, I almost squeezed my thumb, but by dumb luck it fell out of the way just in time), place the squeezer as shown in the video, squeeze. I still held the nutplate for the second rivet or you may not get it to sit flush once squoze(my past tense version of to squeeze).:cool:
 
But I think the CS is for a skin dimple, screw goes through skin and into the nut plate.

Tom, it looks like you are attaching the nutplates with the spar horizontal. I tried that and it requires you to support the entire weight of the squeezer, nutplate in place, plus 2 rivets (can't twist the nutplate once the rivet has been squeezed). So, I mounted the spar vertically, using a 2x4 clamped on each end to secure it to my workbench. I think I have a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS17b0lYbKo

The video describes the HPRS squeezer (now called the squeeze box), but shows my method. In practice, I place the rivets, hold the plate with one thumb(make DARN sure you have clearance, I almost squeezed my thumb, but by dumb luck it fell out of the way just in time), place the squeezer as shown in the video, squeeze. I still held the nutplate for the second rivet or you may not get it to sit flush once squoze(my past tense version of to squeeze).:cool:

Just fyi, you are responding to someone else not me. But yes, I had good luck doing riveting with the spar horizontally, felt more comfortable to me. I simply stuck both rivets in the holes along with the nutplate. Used my left hand thumb to hold the left rivet, and finger to hold the nutplate, and just used my right hand to rivet the right rivet. Seemed fairly natural to me.
 
I usually place one rivet in the nut plate and just cleco the other end. Squeeze the first rivet , remove cleco and install the last rivet.
 
Another Newbie question about builders log

I was wondering what some of you do about a builders log. There are several software products out there that builders use to document their progress. Do some of you do it the old fashioned way? Which is the best? Which is the easiest to use? Does it work better to do it on an iPad? I have not much about this issue. Maybe I was asleep at OshKosh when I walked by their booth.

Thanks for any advice!

Steve
 
I just use a paper log in a 3 ring binder. I like that I can just write in the log as I go and don't have to care about getting a computer dirty. Plus, if I think I have to wait till the end of the work day to make entries, I'm afraid I'll forget to do it.

Every so often I plan to just scan them into my computer.

http://www.datafilehost.com/d/2a7236d6
(uncheck the box to use the download manager so you don't install any garbage on your pc. The name of the file is 389-sample.pdf)

Tom
 
Here is a search of the forums for the word 'log' in the title of threads, probably some good reading in there.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/search.php?searchid=19175546

Bottom line is do what you're comfortable you will keep up with and don't turn it into a project that will distract you from the real goal of building an airplane. I use Wordpress. Others use Blogspot, or Kitlog or 3 ring binders ;)

I also make notes on my plans and sign each page when finished with it. In reality, that's probably sufficient.
 
Plans

I certainly go overboard with a FB page, YouTube channel and my own website, but I annotate each page of the plans with the date and sections completed (12-02.1-3) I also annotate it on a paper calendar, I bought the Vans calendar thinking it would be a cool chronology once completed.

The online stuff I do more to help others or illustrate what I am thinking rather than as a build log.
 
Also look to Tim Olson's website (http://www.myrv10.com). A lot of great stuff. He built a 10 and now is building a 14.

I hope you don't have to get too involved in a builders log. I plan to just sign and date each step in the building plans. Since I am building the left wing, I sign date and put an L. I will put an R for Right. I also photo copied the entire set of plans. I keep the bound set inside to read at night. The other moves around page by page. This is the one I sign and write on. The other is in case I need to copy again for some reason. PLus I will have one pristine set of plans when I am done.

My wife and I (to a lesser extent) take pictures, which I hope my daughter turns into a website. I have to write in a notebook too much at work to have to do it at home. I like to tune out to music and build.
 
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