What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Spinning

gen1313

Active Member
In the process of getting my aerobatic rating and got to spins yesterday.

I have low experience but my instructor does a bit of work with RV pilots, so he had a good idea what to expect. So far he has been impressed with how stable and well behaved the 14 is. Having said that, he was a bit surprised at the spin characteristics compared to a 7. Once you have stablised the spin (stick back, rudder hard over) and done 3-4 turns it comes out ok but it takes a lot of pressure to get the stick forward. On one recovery I pushed a bit too hard and over did it, throwing myself into the canopy and knocking my headset off:eek:. I also found it very easy when applying the opposite rudder to over do it, with the plane snapping the opposite way very quickly. Obviously part of the learning process.

As much as I really wanted to know how to recover the aircraft I can't see myself doing spins for fun.
 
Did you experiment with different spin recovery methods? I'm curious if just letting go of the controls works in the RV-14 or if you do have to actively work to stop the spin. I'm not flying mine yet but I am looking forward to testing the flight envelope, including spins.
 
Interesting, Australia license aerobatics.

R

Australia licenses everything, but almost never checks anything - until the accident report.

This "endorsement" on my license with allow me to fly aerobatics above 3000ft agl. There are lower level endorsements available. Interestingly "spinning" is a separate endorsement but a prerequisite for the "aerobatic" endorsement.
 
Did you experiment with different spin recovery methods? I'm curious if just letting go of the controls works in the RV-14 or if you do have to actively work to stop the spin. I'm not flying mine yet but I am looking forward to testing the flight envelope, including spins.

We did try just letting go (the instructor did) and it did come out but more turns and more speed. Not my preferred method:eek:.
 
Did you experiment with different spin recovery methods? I'm curious if just letting go of the controls works in the RV-14 or if you do have to actively work to stop the spin.

When you say “letting go of the controls” do you mean let go of the stick AND rudder? There are generally only three recognized spin recovery methods- PARE (universal), Beggs-Meuller, and all controls neutral. The last two are emergency recovery methods and must be tested for efficacy per aircraft. All three methods require actively moving at least one control. Letting go of everything, while some airplanes may slowly recover by doing this, should not really be considered a “method”.
 
Shouldn't be pushing as spin recovery......... Throttle closed, stop the rotation with rudder, then recover.
 
Shouldn't be pushing as spin recovery......... Throttle closed, stop the rotation with rudder, then recover.

Are you suggesting he should not move the stick forward to around neutral as part of spin recovery? Holding the stick full aft and waiting for the spin to stop with rudder only before unloading the stick to break the stall is NOT something anyone should learn as an acceptable or preferred spin recovery method. Sure it might work in some airplanes, but you'll spin to the ground in others. Not sure if that's what you're implying, or if you're just saying don't push TOO far forward. Pushing way too far forward can cause a crossover spin in some airplanes, but that's a little different.

OP - definitely do whatever it takes to unload the stick to the correct position after applying opposite rudder. Some airplanes do require a little pressure to unload a fully developed spin. Yak 52 is famous for quite a bit of pressure needed to push the stick forward off the stop for recovery of a fully developed spin. It would spin to the ground if you only applied rudder and waited for the spin to stop.
 
Last edited:
All else aside, if this happens when flying aerobatics (or ever, really):

...throwing myself into the canopy and knocking my headset off...

Your harness wasn't nearly tight enough.

If you roll inverted and your butt or shoulders come off the seat, tighten those straps!!
 
Spins

For training purposes during initial training the initial control inputs should be two separate and deliberate actions. Full opposite rudder to the stop and then stick forward just enough to stop the rotation. It sounds like the OP held the recovery rudder a bit too long and too much forward stick. The spin likely crossed over momentarily to inverted with rotation as viewed from the ground in the same direction as initial spin entry. As experience is gained one learns how to position the elevators jut right for recovery and the recovery rudder and elevator controls can be applied virtually simultaneously.
 
Air Force T-37 required full opposite rudder for one turn then you tried to break the instrument glass with the stick. The stick would remain full forward until spin stopped. "Buggy whipping" the stick was guaranteed to result in a failed spin recovery. Interesting note.........if you held pro-spin rudder and let go of the stick, it would stay full back all on its own!
 
Air Force T-37 required full opposite rudder for one turn then you tried to break the instrument glass with the stick. The stick would remain full forward until spin stopped.

Cool, in aerobatic piston planes this can produce a fun ride (crossover spin) which has actually killed a number of pilots who did not recognize that they transitioned to an inverted spin and what they think are anti-spin inputs are actually now pro-inverted spin inputs.... and the ground continues to spin to their confusion.

Interesting note.........if you held pro-spin rudder and let go of the stick, it would stay full back all on its own!

Yep, lots of planes do this...in fact using the 'Beggs-Mueller' emergency spin recovery technique where you apply anti-spin rudder and let go of the stick, the stick remains aft on its own until the rudder slows the spin to the point that the airplane can regain its natural tendency to fly. The stick will stay back on its own and then pop forward to neutral on its own as the spin stops.
 
Last edited:
I should have been more specific. We tried the Beggs-Mueller method but it was much slower to come out than applying some forward stick. Please keep in mind this is all new to me. Just thought I would share as there doesn?t seem to be a lot on VAF about how a 14 recovers from a spin.

My harness was pretty tight but when you?re 6?5? there is not a lot of spare room in the cockpit so it doesn?t take much movement.

Trent, I was with Peter Townsend from Aussie Aerobatics in Bankstown. He has been excellent.
 
Spins

From day one it has been well known that Meuller Beggs doe not work in all airplanes. It works fine for most popular aerobatic airplanes but not all. IICC does not work in Cessna 150 and Chipmunk.
It works fine in the Sukhoi SU29 except for accelerated spins. If the recovery rudder is not removed at just the right time the spin will transition from upright to inverted or inverted to upright.
 
Quote
Cool, in aerobatic piston planes this can produce a fun ride (crossover spin) which has actually killed a number of pilots who did not recognize that they transitioned to an inverted spin and what they think are anti-spin inputs are actually now pro-inverted spin inputs.... and the ground continues to spin to their confusion.

Yep, happened fairly often with students. The "single spin recovery" always began with stick abruptly full aft with rudder and ailerons neutral even if you were in an inverted spin. If you were in an inverted spin, this would immediately transition you back to a normal erect spin. Then, you got to try again! Strange things would show up like, cigarette butts and other assorted trash from the negative g.
 
Last edited:
The "single spin recovery" always began with stick abruptly full aft with rudder and ailerons neutral even if you were in an inverted spin. If you were in an inverted spin, this would immediately transition you back to a normal erect spin.

What kind of airplane were you flying? I've never flown an aerobatic airplane that would crossover from inverted to upright from idle power with the ailerons and rudder held neutral while applying full aft stick. In fact, I've never been able to get ANY airplane to spin with neutral rudder and idle power, no matter what I did with the stick. With power, yes. Not a fan of this idea of trying to teach inverted spin recovery by first transitioning to an upright spin. That's a recipe for accidentally accelerating the spin you're already in...without recovering. No need for that.

Accepted spin recovery techniques in the aerobatic community are pretty much limited to PARE, Beggs, and neutral. Since this is the RV forum, I'd suggest not leading folks here off the well beaten path since many have limited spin experience and perspective on spins and active/emergency recovery. PARE works in all RVs as an active recovery technique. And moving all controls to neutral (ensure idle power) works in RVs as an emergency recovery technique, the beauty being that it makes no difference whether you're upright or inverted or spinning left or right. Once we get off the beaten path of generally accepted spin recovery techniques, you expose yourself further to quirky aircraft-specific characteristics, which may not work out so well.

Like I said before, even the two accepted emergency recovery techniques should be tested per aircraft type for efficacy considering not all airplanes respond to them in all spin modes. I don't know of any safely "spinnable" airplanes that do not recover via PARE, but that is not technically an "emergency" technique. The point of "emergency" technique is to shed some or all (depending on which version is suitable for your airplane) of the need to determine whether you're upright or inverted, or which way you're spinning. And if anyone thinks this should always be obvious has not been run through the ringer on all possible spin modes. ;) Emergency spin recovery applies more to aerobatic pilots than GA pilots getting basic spin training, but any pilot can benefit. Your local flight school doing spin endorsements in a 150 or 172 would probably look at you crossed eyed if you mentioned Beggs-Mueller.
 
Last edited:
Over 1000 hours instructing in T-37s. Not really interested in debating what I did for years. Just thought it may be interesting to some people. Ask anyone that went thru UPT to recite the T-37 single spin recovery bold face items. Guarantee they will know it. Sorry for bringing it up and interrupting an obvious expert.

Note to all RVers. Do not use anything I've said concerning an Air Force airplane I flew over 40 years ago to try to recover your out of control RV. There, that should fix it.

Geez
 
Last edited:
T-37 spin recovery

"Ask anyone that went thru UPT to recite the T-37 single spin recovery bold face items. Guarantee they will know it."

I haven't flown a T-37 since 1971, but here goes...Single Spin Recovery:

1) Throttles idle
2) Stick full back ailerons neutral
3) Rudder full opposite direction of spin
4) After one turn, Stick full forward
5) Controls neutral after spinning stops
6) Recover to level flight

Is that pretty close?

I went to the T-38 for over 2000 hours but we didn't spin the Talon.

The Beggs spin recovery did save my A$$ in a Christen Eagle II one day, and I got a chance to thank him personally.
 
Last edited:
Danny,
Pretty darn close:

Throttles ? Idle

Rudder and Ailerons ? Neutral

Stick ? Abruptly full aft and hold

Rudder ? Abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction (opposite turn needle) and hold

Stick ? Abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder

Controls ? Neutral after spinning stops and recover from dive
 
Over 1000 hours instructing in T-37s. Not really interested in debating what I did for years. Just thought it may be interesting to some people. Ask anyone that went thru UPT to recite the T-37 single spin recovery bold face items. Guarantee they will know it. Sorry for bringing it up and interrupting an obvious expert.

Note to all RVers. Do not use anything I've said concerning an Air Force airplane I flew over 40 years ago to try to recover your out of control RV. There, that should fix it.

Geez

Gotcha - Not trying to step into your T-37 world which I have zero experience with, but you didn't make it clear that your additional comments were limited this context only. I was just trying to make sure your comments weren't construed as applicable to RVs or the piston acro world in general, which is apples to oranges and really could get folks in trouble who don't have the experience to sort out internet comments on this subject of spin training and safety.
 
Are you suggesting he should not move the stick forward to around neutral as part of spin recovery? Holding the stick full aft and waiting for the spin to stop with rudder only before unloading the stick to break the stall is NOT something anyone should learn as an acceptable or preferred spin recovery method.

...unless the subject is a classic J-3 or L-4. Solo, aft CG, the most effective recovery is indeed full back stick until rotation stops. Allow the stick to float forward (it takes some muscle to keep it full aft) and you'll add a few rotations to the recovery.

It's in the original WWII Army manual for the L-4, and I tried it both ways. Trivia really, not necessarily true for an RV, and apparently the opposite of the T-37. Point is that in addition to universal technique, it's worth asking if the subject aircraft varies from the norm. The OP is doing the right thing by asking around about the RV-14.
 
Last edited:
...unless the subject is a classic J-3 or L-4. Solo, aft CG, the most effective recovery is indeed full back stick until rotation stops. Allow the stick to float forward (it takes some muscle to keep it full aft) and you'll add a few rotations to the recovery.

Interesting - I had a J-3 at one point and spun it a bunch. It always popped out of a spin nearly instantly just by neutralizing the stick and rudder. Keeping the stick full aft definitely did not recover spins more efficiently at normal solo W&B, but I never tried loading up the baggage compartment to see how full aft CG affected the spin recovery. I have no reason to dispute what you say.

But yeah, PARE is the best universal starting point for any airplane that is safely spinnable and you can tune it from there depending on aircraft-specific characteristics.
 
37 BOLDFACE

It's been 30 years but I still remember the BOLDFACE

THROTTLES IDLE.
RUDDER AND AILERONS NEUTRAL.
STICK ABRUPTLY FULL AFT AND HOLD.
RUDDER ABRUPTLY APPLY FULL RUDDER OPPOSITE SPIN DIRECTION = OPPOSITE TURN NEEDLE - AND HOLD.
STICK ABRUPTLY FULL FORWARD ONE TURN AFTER APPLYING RUDDER.
CONTROLS NEUTRAL AFTER SPINNING STOPS - RECOVER FROM DIVE.
 
Trent, I was with Peter Townsend from Aussie Aerobatics in Bankstown. He has been excellent.

He?s a top bloke. Bring a plastic snake on your next flight and float it up in front of him at some point - his reaction should be awesome! (Wear ear plugs) 🤣
 
Its been a million years, but talk about weird spin recovery. Navy T-28--(big engine--same as a DC 3 if I recall) I seem to remember stick full forward, then a "L" shape---right or left, depending on which way one was spinning. (RV's are a lot safer):)
 
Last edited:
Exactly what a T-37 will do if you hold the stick forward too long. Saw it several times with students.

As I said before, my comments in no way recommend this recovery in RVs. It's not what I've done in any of the three RVs I've owned to date. I just interjected what I thought was an interesting contrast to the planes we now fly.

So, one more time then I'm out.

To all RVers: do not attempt to conduct or repeat any flight technique, recovery method, or semi-interesting discussion item seen from this writer. This includes (but is not limited to) in your home, your car, at your desk, in any other recreational or professional activities or at your local VFW or Moose Lodge.
 
A self taught aerobatic pilot has a fool for an instructor. This includes "teaching" yourself spins. You can learn more from a good instructor in one hour than you can on your own in one year.
 
Guys, the stick and rudder work has been pretty well beat to death here. I do have a question about your throttle setting though. I just want to confirm that you're throttle is idle when recovering. Is that what you were doing?

Is your prop metal or composite? A heavier prop can induce some gyroscopic effect. If you add power *during* the spin, it will tend to flatten the spin. That's not what you want if you're trying to recover, obviously. A lighter composite prop will not have such a pronounced gyroscopic effect, but the effect remains nonetheless.

By the way, how many here remember the F-16 spin recovery boldface? I will say that the MPO switch works like a charm. Ask me how I know...:eek:
 
I would post the F18 spin recovery procedure however I am not sure there is enough band width to send it!
 
If you add power *during* the spin, it will tend to flatten the spin. That's not what you want if you're trying to recover, obviously.

Yes but predominantly only in one direction. Adding power definitely flattens left rudder upright spins and right rudder inverted spins with clockwise turning props, but may have the opposite effect for right rudder upright/left rudder inverted depending on gyroscopic influence vs. propwash effect over the elevator.
 
Guys, the stick and rudder work has been pretty well beat to death here. I do have a question about your throttle setting though. I just want to confirm that you're throttle is idle when recovering. Is that what you were doing?

Is your prop metal or composite? A heavier prop can induce some gyroscopic effect. If you add power *during* the spin, it will tend to flatten the spin. That's not what you want if you're trying to recover, obviously. A lighter composite prop will not have such a pronounced gyroscopic effect, but the effect remains nonetheless.

Throttle at idle for all recoveries. Prop is the recommended 72" Hartzell.
 
Back
Top