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Question on RV-6A Useful Load

I am new to the site and forums and enjoying the heck out of all the good information.

I am looking to buy a RV-6A with a iO-360 and FP prop and noticed it's Empty Weight is 1,168.40 pounds and of course, Gross Weight at the factory listed 1650 pounds. This leaves only 481 pounds Useful Load. At 38 gallons fuel capacity that leaves about 253 pounds for the wife and me. With these numbers I would need to get a new wife or drop fuel.

What is a typical Empty Weight for an RV-6A?

Is the stated Empty Weight of 1168.4 a concern?
 
I am new to the site and forums and enjoying the heck out of all the good information.
I am looking to buy a RV-6A with a iO-360 and FP prop and noticed it's Empty Weight is 1,168.40 pounds and of course, Gross Weight at the factory listed 1650 pounds. This leaves only 481 pounds Useful Load. At 38 gallons fuel capacity that leaves about 253 pounds for the wife and me. With these numbers I would need to get a new wife or drop fuel.
What is a typical Empty Weight for an RV-6A?
Is the stated Empty Weight of 1168.4 a concern?

Empty weight of 1168.4 lbs. would be a concern to me. My RV-6 is fully equipped at 1040 lbs. with a 3-blade Catto prop and extended range fuel tanks.
People today don't seem to be concerned with empty weight. A light RV flies Sooo much better than a heavy one.
 
My -7A came in at just over 1100 when built with a PC-680 battery on the firewall and 3 blade Catto + 20 lb Saber crush plate (for CG) on an O360-A4M that was upgraded to AFP fuel injection and dual P-Mags. I have since dropped 11.5 lbs by replacing the PC-680 with an EarthX ETX680C. Should be around 1095 lbs empty, now. Not yet painted.

Is your engine an angle valve (not likely with the FP prop)? If not, I suggest having the plane re-weighed.
 
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an angle-valve IO-360 would certainly add some weight. My 6A is a little heavier than I would like at 1088, but that includes a 20# crushplate to improve the CG. I could drop a good 25# with a lightweight starter and aluminum crushplate, but it would hurt my CG too much. I could also improve my weight and CG by switching to the smaller, much lighter, original RV-6 vertical stab and rudder. I have a RV-7 tail.

The 6A is always going to come in a little heavier than the 6 since it has the extra gear leg plus all the extra weight required to shift the main gear aft. Van's lists the empty weight at 985 vs 965 for the tailwheel model. I don't know how anyone would hit that number with paint, but it can apparently be done. I think less than 1100 is acceptable for a painted plane - but just my opinion.
 
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My RV6-A with paint is around 1040, o320 d1a, and sterba prop. My POH states 1800lbs max weight , I suppose the builder tested it at that? I keep it at 1650 though as I believe vans more :)
 
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...t. Van's lists the empty weight at 985 vs 965 for the tailwheel model. I don't know how anyone would hit that number with paint, but it can apparently be done...
Van's builds their planes, the early ones at least, as simple VFR ships.
No interior, minimal panels, manual flaps, O-320, (wood?) fixed pitched props, etc.

Everyone seems to want a minu-Airbus and loads their airplanes up with ever imaginable option these days.

It is easy to build lightness in, you just have to want the trade-offs.

When people ask my advice about buying an RV, I tell them to look at the empty weight first.
 
Van's lists the empty weight at 985 vs 965 for the tailwheel model. I don't know how anyone would hit that number with paint.

My airplane (RV-6, O-320 wood prop) weighs 1030 lbs. If I swapped to a Lithium battery, that would save 10 pounds. I could remove the 10 lb flywheel weight. I have at least 10 pounds of carpet and "extra" upholstry in the airplane and 5 pounds of ballast in the wheel pants (once upon a time, it was thought that helped prevent shimmy). Strip off 20 pounds of primer and thick paint and reconfigure to a tip-up (that saves 5 pounds, IIRC). Remove all of that excess weight (and throw the autopilot out too) and my airplane is headed towards Van's published weight.

If you had seen "Old Blue", you'd recognize it as a VERY bare bones airplane, including near-translucent paint. You don't see many like that.
 
My 6A

My 6a is 1096 per last W&B O320 fixed pitch wood Warnke prop. Seat cushions is all the upholstery I have, no brakes right side. Your weight seems a bit heavy, but no info on panel, interiors, prop. You could get to that weight . I would not mention weight to your bride 😉
 
My -6, 0320, rv200 c/s prop, dual efis, autopilot, ifr, flightline interior, earth x battery, lightweight starter and alternator, base/clear heavy paint plane weighs 1105lbs with a 1750lbs gross weight. The problem is more aft cg than total weight. I can carry a passenger or bags, but not both. I have a 10lb weight hanging on the alternator to help with the aft cg.
 
Our RV-6

Lola, our RV-6 tilt-up weighs 1040 with a full gyro panel, KX-170B navcom, KN-97 Transponder, DME, fixed wood prop on a light, simple carbureted O-320. Hoping to replace the gyros and vacuum pump with a G5 soon. Saves at least 10 lbs? An 1100+ lb RV-6 sounds kind of heavy, even with the nosegear. When was it weighed last?
 
I would pass on an RV-6 with an empty weight of 1160lb, its just too heavy. The first RV I had was a 6A with an empty weight of around 1050lb. With 2 people, full fuel and bags it was quite possible to get it over 1650lb gross. Saving weight at the front would send the cg aft which meant less baggage could be loaded. I now have a 6 with a heavy motor and prop, it is about to start dieting but the cg should stay under control as it is toward the front of the envelope to start with.

Look at overall weight and cg position. It will be expensive to get an 1160lb empty airplane down to around 1050 empty, even if the cg stays in a reasonable place, so I would pass on this one. A 160hp light RV-6 is just about always better than a heavy, high powered, example. RV-7s & 8s carry the bigger engines much better.
 
Keeping Wife

Thanks All for the great advice.
I have approached the dealer involved asking to explain the heavy empty weight numbers but no good reason was offered.
I will take your experiences and pass on this one.
And if I got rid of the wife I would have nothing left to pay for the plane! Besides, she's a pretty good one to put up with me.
 
Thanks All for the great advice.
I have approached the dealer involved asking to explain the heavy empty weight numbers but no good reason was offered.
I will take your experiences and pass on this one.
And if I got rid of the wife I would have nothing left to pay for the plane! Besides, she's a pretty good one to put up with me.

Barry, I think you made a good decision on both counts. :)

That -6A was really heavy. You can't fully appreciate the wonderful handling of a light -6 until you have flown one. My 1999 RV-6 was 1010 at inspection and it is still very close to this weight......the pilot hasn't done nearly as well at staying svelte.....
 
RV-6, IO-320, 2 Blade Catto, Full Garmin G3x panel

1056 empty

We still use the 1,650 gross limit but like others have said we go Aft CG before we gross out.

Me and Pax usually have to land with fuel in tanks for ballast to keep us in cg envelope.

Heaver prop / engine / nose wheel would obviously help the CG issue but now were into the useful load.

Keeping with in the Acro envelope requires solo and not much fuel.
 
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RV-6, IO-320, 2 Blade Catto, Full Garmin G3x panel

1056 empty

We still use the 1,650 gross limit but like others have said we go Aft CG before we gross out.

Me and Pax usually have to land with fuel in tanks for ballast to keep us in cg envelope.

Heaver prop / engine / nose wheel would obviously help the CG issue but now were into the useful load.

Keeping with in the Acro envelope requires solo and not much fuel.

The heavy crushplate was well worth the 20# hit I took. I can carry a decent passenger load with minimum fuel and still stay within limits. Handy on long flights.
 
The heavy crushplate was well worth the 20# hit I took. I can carry a decent passenger load with minimum fuel and still stay within limits. Handy on long flights.

Same here. I prefer the feel of the plane without it, but won’t give up the baggage capacity it provides. I weigh in at 1100 with tools, fire extinguisher and20# crush plate and paint
 
Thanks All for the great advice.
I have approached the dealer involved asking to explain the heavy empty weight numbers but no good reason was offered.
I will take your experiences and pass on this one.
And if I got rid of the wife I would have nothing left to pay for the plane! Besides, she's a pretty good one to put up with me.

I have dealt with dealers in the past regarding RV's, and in general they don't have a clue as to what they are trying to sell you. To them it's just another airplane deal. Best bet if you can is to buy from the builder, if not at least get the advice of an RV saavy person, and of course VAF forums.
Regarding the wife, probably should hang on to her. Good wives are to find, good RV's not quite as difficult. Good luck!
 
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I have dealt with dealers in the past regarding RV's, and in general they don't have a clue as to what they are trying to sell you. To them it's just another airplane deal. Best bet if you can is to buy from the builder, if not at least get the advice of an RV savvy person, and of course VAF forums.
Regarding the wife, probably should hang on to her. Good wives are to find, good RV's not quite as difficult. Good luck!

Great advice X 2.

If anyone knows of a good RV-6A that the owner may want to part with...let me know. I?d be fine with a -7A or -9A if the price was right.

Thx!
 
Weight a minute...

I am new to the site and forums and enjoying the heck out of all the good information.

I am looking to buy a RV-6A with a iO-360 and FP prop and noticed it's Empty Weight is 1,168.40 pounds and of course, Gross Weight at the factory listed 1650 pounds. This leaves only 481 pounds Useful Load. At 38 gallons fuel capacity that leaves about 253 pounds for the wife and me. With these numbers I would need to get a new wife or drop fuel.

What is a typical Empty Weight for an RV-6A?

Is the stated Empty Weight of 1168.4 a concern?

Barry,
As mentioned above, that's pretty hefty for a 6A and a concern for me personally as to useful load. My advice? Gain an appreciation for the design by building your own RV or, keep looking. 1000lb EW for any 2 seat RV is a good goal for builders and buyers IMHO.
As a bona fide Jurassic RV builder/pilot, my goal back in the early 90's for my RV4 (before paint and acoutraments):) was 950lbs. It ended up tipping the scales at 925lbs and flew delightfully for 2000 hours on it's basic, VFR 0320/Catto prop airframe.
As mentioned, in the past few years RV's have become "accessory magnets" with every possible bell and whistle imaginable being bolted in or on the airframe. Case in point is the RV14, basically a giant size RV6 for big dudes to bolt on alot of unneeded junk IMHO.
That said, I currently fly an RV6 "X" hybrid I built from spare parts that recently tipped the scales at 957 lbs empty with paint, basic I-Pad panel and an 0-360/Catto prop. They can be kept light with a bit of effort.

The lighter they are the better they fly. (and the more you can carry.)

V/R
Smokey
 
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the RV14, basically a giant size RV6 for big dudes to bolt on alot of unneeded junk IMHO.

+1 on that Smokey ;)

Playing the devil?s advocate... Barry, if you are hooked to that specific -6 try to find out A/ if the figures are correct, and B/ the reason for the excessive weight. As an example old 6 packs gyro panels could easily tip the scales at 50+ lbs. Removing a vacuum system and replacing the old stuff by one or two current glass screens can greatly help. Another area can be insulation/carpets/upholstery.

All this to say that if she has appeal, the price is right, and you like tinkering...

Last option, have a pre-buy inspection done, a knowledgeable assessor should be able to easily spot where the bacon is.
 
Great advice

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice. I did move on from the heavy -6A I originally asked about. The good news is two of our colleagues have contacted me regarding their -6As for potential sale.
Looking forward to grinin?.
Barry
 
weight and balance

WOW, I just purchased a -6a and the W&B shows empty weight 1180, gross weight 1793.
I hope his scales were off. He did glass over the seams and rivets, but that's still a lot of weight.
Guess I need to find someone with scales and gas cans!:confused:
 
I've seen a number of RV6s "certified" at 1800 max gross.

Is this....legitimate? I'm told a builder can certify for whatever they want, even though Van's says Recommended Max Gross is 1650.
 
I would say that most RV6's loaded to 1800 gross will have a dangerous aft CG.

You need to trust the designer..........
 
1800 for a 6a is very common.

I am about 230lbs. I can take two grown men and fill the luggage compartment and full fuel and still be under the 1800. I will wholeheartedly disagree with the lighter is better group. Maybe if you are doing aerobatics.....heavy lands exceptionally better than light.

The gadgets generally make the plane safer by supplying much more situational awareness to the pilot. I’m sure there are examples, but I can’t think of much that I would consider a waste of lbs. I’m building a 10 now and I’m sure it will be a fat girl in terms of weight when I get done....three screens, full interior, ac, and anything else I can find to make the use of the plane more comfortable and enjoyable. I’ll take the trade off of the comfort and situational awareness for carrying capacity all day long.

I’ve also done stalls and slow flight at that weight and had no issue with the cg.

Now the one caveat I will admit to is that I hardly ever get below 20 gallons of fuel. I just don’t like sitting there longer than 2.5-3 hours. If you ran the fuel down low, the cg will obviously shift rearward.
 
So your RV6A O360 and C/S metal prop must weigh in at 1037#. And if it did, you could take another 230# passenger and 75# of cargo to stay at or under your 1800# gross weight.

Ask Van the reason he made the gross 1650#.
 
Talk about a fat boy, my RV-6A empty weight was 1134 pounds! I followed the plans meticulously and did remove all the lightning holes in the ribs. I have a painted interior, and DJ seats from Cleveland tool, Lyc 0360 and Hartzell CS prop.. I did put a new panel in it with a G3X and GTN 650 but what I took out weighed at least that much so I might’ve dropped a few pounds. My gross weight Is 1875 pounds. I have flown it at Max gross weight but you do need to watch the fuel burn as the CG moves aft. In this condition I never fly below 10 gallons in the tank and it gets very light on the tail. This allows me to carry a pilot and passenger each weighing 200 pounds, 100 pounds in the baggage compartment and full fuel and never get outside the CG envelope. I guess my weight problem must be all that pretty paint! If I fly aerobatics I make sure to keep it light as possible, which means I start out with 15 gallons of fuel and just me. Marty N826ME
 
I’ll take the trade off of the comfort and situational awareness for carrying capacity all day long.

I’ve also done stalls and slow flight at that weight and had no issue with the cg.

Weight effects more than just stalls and CG position. Although situational awareness may bring you some safety in some situations, flying heavy eats away your safety margins every time you fly heavy.
 
1112 lbs

My IO-320 6A with fix pitch was 1112 lbs after I installed one 10" display, G5, GTN650, Sorcerer, GMA240, GTX327 and cloth seats (no other interior) and regular battery, PC680. I did have a backup alternator. I re-painted the plane which was stripped to the aluminum, primed and painted with single stage paint. I know the lower cowl was heavy because I had to re-glass the exhaust exit along with other areas, let's say 8-10 lbs extra at most. I removed the aluminum around the windshield and roll bar and glassed it so maybe another 10 lbs extra maybe. I would think the majority of RV6's should be within 40-50 lbs of each other. The scales I used were car scales which were not certified so not sure how much they were off if any.

I'm not sure how one plane can weigh 1030 lbs and another weigh 1160 lbs even if one plane is just cloth seats with basic VFR with light weight prop and another plane fully decked out interior and CS prop. A 130 lbs difference is quite a range difference. Your big hitters on weight and this is just an estimate is prop (CS metal vs fp carbon fiber) 25 lbs difference, a/c battery 10 lbs difference, paint vs no paint 25 lbs difference, basic interior vs decked out, 25 lbs difference, poor fiberglass work 20 lbs difference. This is 105 lbs from one extreme to the other.

Are these estimates about right??? I'm curious how many of the 6's weighing < 1050 lbs have no paint, light wt props, and some other extreme weight saver?
 
Increased stall speed, reduced climb rate, lower structural margins, increased wear and tear.

And as the CG moves back to the aft limit (or beyond it??) pitch stability disappears. Instead of the stick returning to neutral pitch after disrupting it, it will remain in the deflected position. This increases workload and can be dangerous for an inattentive or inexperienced pilot.

I experienced this in the RV-6 very early on the first long cross-county trip when I loaded the baggage compartment more than I realized and carried a hefty passenger. I asked Mike Seager about this when he was flying the RV-6 around the country with a heavy load while doing transition training and he told me that with an aft CG "you have to fly the plane all the time". I found this to be very true and learned from it, and never loaded the -6 that way again.
 
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Please elaborate....

The RVs have been designed, analyzed, and tested to a given weight. Any time you are flying at a weight higher than the designed to weight, you are cutting into the safety margins. How much are you cutting into the safety margin you do not know unless you did the analysis that says what part fails at what loading doing what maneuver. Flying my RV-6A at 1650 lbs I know I have a 1.5 times safety factor. Flying at 1700 or 1800 lbs I have no idea what my safety factor is and what part may fail at what load factor. Structural behavior in aircaft under flight and ground loads is not linear so assuming you are only a few percent over the loading does not mean you are only giving a few percent of the margin.

Remember, above the design to loads there is a safety factor that parts are not supposed to fail until 150% of that load. What people never realize is that any loading above design to load up to failure, permanent structural deformation can occur.

Will the airplane fall out of the sky if you fly at 1800 lbs, probably not. Could you get some structural deformation if you hit a gust that bounces you at 3 gs, or you land hard at 1700 lbs, yes. It may not break but then next time you fly heavy and hit that same gust or land hard your airplane is a little weaker and no longer has the same safety factor and could fail. Safety Margins are there for the unknowns of the design, analysis, build, and test and not to be used to increase operating envelops with out new analysis and test.
 
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Our aircraft is a 6A and the builder registered an 1800 lb gross weight. It has the IO-320 and CS prop and the battery is mounted on the firewall. Empty weight is very close to 1100 lbs.
The critical formula is the CofG and insuring that’s it’s kept inside the range, especially with empty tanks.
Lots of discussion on weights over the original weights specified by the designer.
Obviously it’s prudent to stay within the original weights however there maybe some comfort in knowing that the RV 6 was built in the largest numbers plus the greatest total time of flying hours and to date, if I’m to believe what’s been published ....there have been no structural In flight failures. Considering that these aircraft have engaged in aerobatics 2 up on an ongoing basis, well over the suggested gross weight and I’m sure by less that well trained pilots It does suggest that there just may be a bigger cushion of strength than we think. Again, I’m not promoting flying over gross or doing aerobatics over the suggested gross weights, all I’m saying is that many pilots are doing it and so far, over many years and thousands of flight hours the structure seems to be able to take it.
 
This is certainly an interesting topic.

I took my empty weight and CG information and ran through a bunch of loading scenarios at 1800 pounds and I never got out of CG all the way down to 8 gallons even with me, normal-sized pax and 100 pounds of baggage.

That being said, I've been treating it as a 1650-max-gross airplane until I get the rest of my mods decided on. Then I'll have everything re-weighed.
 
The critical formula is the CofG and insuring that’s it’s kept inside the range, especially with empty tanks.

There are numerous critical considerations.

Loads carried by landing gear, in flight gust loads, and a reduction in limit load would be just a few others.
 
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