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Landing with a tail wind...

David-aviator

Well Known Member
Our airport favors west departures for noise abatement which is understandable, no sense irritating people unnecessarily.

But departures do not get switched to east unless wind exceeds a certain tail wind factor. Whatever it is, it's more than 5 knots.

Yesterday it was landing with reported 5 knots direct out of east. It does make a difference especially with tail wheel in that it takes longer to slow down once on surface and requires full time attention keeping it straight. Tail is on at 10 knots higher ground speed than landing with 5 knot headwind.

But it all worked out ok, one more time.

As the time line of learning tail wheel ops goes, first 50 hours are dangerous, next 50 a little less dangerous, next 50 somewhat under control, next 50 under control and can handle most anything (within reason of course).

:) :)

I sure enjoy flying the RV-8. Patrolled Missouri River out past Herman yesterday, only enemy activity was one lone turkey buzzard who did not know to dive or climb as he went by a couple hundred feet away. It was close enough to get my attention, I wish they had ADS-B.
 
Landing with a tailwind

I think I would land into the wind at 5 knts regardless of what your airport standards are; if it's uncontrolled then it's up to you. If it's controlled ask for the correct, into the wind runway, You are the PIC and if you prang the AC landing with a tailwind, it will be considered your fault regardless of the airport SOP.

The way I learned it was that "I'd rather break ground and fly into the wind than the other way around".

My 2 cents worth, but landing with more than 5 knts on the tail just isn't a good idea

Steve
 
I agree with Steve. You are the PIC, ask for the correct runway, if it is a controlled field. If uncontrolled, just do it.

If you crack up your plane, the NTSB and FAA isn't going to care about the arbitrary use runway X when the winds are at or below five knots.
 
I understand the point of keeping the neighbors happy but, having been living on an established field and then having a subdivision encroach, I feel it is nessecary to "remind" the neighboring occupants we are here and here to stay. Especially when it come to favorable wind/landing conditions and safety.
 
The bigger the average traffic size, the more tailwinds are "offered". Noise, instrument procedure flow at your field and others that share airspace, etc stack up to the PIC having to request a more favorable runway.

It is good to know the, "why" that pushes tailwinds, but push come to shove, the NTSB and your insurance company do not care.
 
Great topic David.

At Lincoln (KLHM) the calm wind runway is one-five (15). The AWOS recording states that calm wind is defined as 5 knots or less. So with a quartering tailwind pilots are landing with 5 knots of tailwind with a crosswind component sometimes added on depending on how its blowing at the time. I've been told this is primarily done to accommodate parachute activity which occurs near the downwind/crosswind area near tree-tree (33).

I was practicing formation flight with an experienced card holder in the back seat. Before returning to the airport, lead provided the wx on frequency and directed we would be landing one-five.

Looking at the wind sock on short final and seeing my ground speed indicated the tailwind was >5 knots. I touched down on the mains fine with the tail raised and rudder in to compensate for the crosswind. My stick was neutral to slightly forward to keep my tail raised on this higher than normal roll out speed. My directional control was good due to lots of left rudder to compensate for the crosswind. A gust of wind abruptly pushed my tail down on to the runway before I was ready to initiated it. Because the stick was not pinned back when the wheel touched and the little wheel in back was cocked due to crosswind correction, we made a quick undesired directional excursion towards the side of the runway. I pulled the stick back to pin the tail wheel and slid my dancing toes up to the brakes in time to arrest the rotation that had started. Having that extra weight in back made it feel as if there was a pendulum back there trying to force a full rotation. Fortunately that didn't happen because the application of the brakes on the opposite side broke the momentum allowing time to regain directional control.

Debriefing that with my mentor really helped to break it down and understand what happened and what other options there are available.

I have landed at Lincoln solo quite a few times with a < 5 knot tailwind without any problems. Add 200+ pounds in back makes it a bit different. More mass. More momentum.
 
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Why did they move next to the airport?!

This always baffles me. People move next to an airport/train/speedway etc. Then complain about the noise! Fools... They should be immediately dismissed by the legal system. Ok, rant over.

Ultimately, they want the airport moved. If you make noise they complain, if you land with a tailwind trying to be quiet, and happen to ball up your plane, they'll be on the news "See how dangerous they are!" Can't win.
 
If you're doing it right, an airplane isn't loud on landing approach. So I land on the runway that is pointed into the wind, despite local "guidance".
 
For the sake of discussion:

It is my opinion that David is wise in seeing how his airplane performs during a tailwind landing. If you've never attempted one, it may be an eye opening experience.

There are airports that are one way in and one way out and taking off and landing leaves you with choices; land with the tailwind which some here on the forum advocate never doing; never ever land there, in which case you may miss one of life's great experiences, go somewhere else and hope for non prevailing conditions when you have planned your long awaited get away.

Two airports come readily to mind that may require landing with a tailwind. Gaston's Resort in Arkansas is a one way in, blind approach down a valley with power lines across one end of the runway. Another is the runway at Monument Valley where a high bluff obstructs one end of the runway. I have landed at both of these with tailwinds in my RV7. Another scenario might be a low level engine out where obstructions or a situation requiring steep turns make a downwind landing a better option.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say something controversial. This is a reason I am not a fan of instructors teaching to always, always fly a stabilized by the book AIM approved approach. When things go bad, a pilot has the best chance of a successful outcome if he has prior experience in similar circumstances. It is my feeling that pilots need to be able to handle non-stabilized approaches and know when to break them off and go around... if that is an option. It won't always be an option at some airfields.

I advocate expanding your envelope in small increments, perhaps with a like minded cfi on board and working in to challenging conditions when they are only mildly challenging, just like David is doing!

p.s. These are my thoughts only and I am not a cfi, a high time pilot with military or airline experience, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn. All my hours have been through the school of GA hard knocks. No bent metal yet but I have had close calls and your results may vary. Don't try this just because I have gotten away with it. If you do decide to try it, wait till you have plenty of hours under your belt.
Fire away!:)
 
I think I would land into the wind at 5 knts regardless of what your airport standards are; if it's uncontrolled then it's up to you. If it's controlled ask for the correct, into the wind runway, You are the PIC and if you prang the AC landing with a tailwind, it will be considered your fault regardless of the airport SOP.

The way I learned it was that "I'd rather break ground and fly into the wind than the other way around".

My 2 cents worth, but landing with more than 5 knts on the tail just isn't a good idea

Steve

It is not all that simple Steve.

We have parallel runways, one is closed until sometime in December for resurface job.

That runway is normal for GA type ops. The runway that is open is normal for the corporate jets, so we GA types have to fit in the flow of things. I've waited 10 minutes for take off clearance and last time I flew it was long down wind some 5 miles east of airport to sequence landing and take off needs.

Yes, I know about PIC privileges.

But the reality here is if I request a landing on the east runway with 3 or 4 inbounds to the preferred west runway, I will be put in a holding pattern until there is a break in inbound traffic.

If it were uncontrolled I would land into wind, no question about it. But the way things are here right now with closed runway, its dance to the music or don't fly.

The tower guys are aware of the problem but their hands are tied with local procedure re noise abatement. I have been given a landing into wind without even asking, depends on traffic. The tower guys are great.

I mentioned the experience of landing with a tail wind because it is not a normal thing. I was not thinking about a discussion with FAA to get landing into wind.
 
Versatile

It is a good idea to practice landing with a tail wind.

Although a headwind is preferable, those with instrument tickets should be able to accept a 5-7 knot tailwind landing on a suitable IFR runway rather than the much riskier circle to land maneuver in poor visibility.

Don
 
The way I learned it was that "I'd rather break ground and fly into the wind than the other way around".

Steve

I'm sorry, I can't resist a light-hearted joking comment here: When I tried to formulate what "the other way around" was for the adage, I came up with, "I'd rather break wind and fly into the ground" :D:D
 
If it were uncontrolled I would land into wind, no question about it. But the way things are here right now with closed runway, its dance to the music or don't fly.

Fly over to 1H0, only 7 miles away, were airplanes can land any direction they wish, and do often. It keeps your eyes outside and I wouldn't want it any other way.

I sure enjoy flying the RV-8. Patrolled Missouri River out past Herman yesterday, only enemy activity was one lone turkey buzzard who did not know to dive or climb as he went by a couple hundred feet away. It was close enough to get my attention, I wish they had ADS-B.

Glad you were flying the MO River patrol this week. I was not able to get up this week.
 
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Tailwind landings

I had an experience recently when landing at Palm Springs airport. I was cleared to land, "caution wake turbulence" behind a 737 on runway 30. The wind was called out at 4 knots and 130 degrees. I was not given the wind until I asked for it on short final. I focused on landing before the jet rotated, but I also noticed the wind sock at about 1/2 staff, or 5-7 knots directly on my tail. It was 98 degrees and density altitude was a factor as well. I also had a little "Get There It is" working against my good judgment.

Didn't like it, but figured since this was a controlled airport with commercial aircraft coming and going, that getting a reassignment to runway 12 would muck up their whole procedure. I probably have 700 landings in my RV-4, but the few I have tried downwind have never felt great. Same with takeoffs, by the way. Maintaining directional control is way more challenging for me on these few occasions and each time I tell myself 'don't do that again'.

It all worked out OK, but I didn't enjoy the speed at touchdown and the pucker factor. Next time I think I will ask them to send me out and bring me in later when they can allow me to land into the wind. Or, maybe after 700 more tailwheel landings this won't bother me.
 
We here in Davis, California have been working on equipping turkey vultures (and turkeys) with ADS-B as fast as we can. But since the birds have a right to disagree, most of them are declining to equip since their cost would be onerous <cue tongue in cheek>
 
We here in Davis, California have been working on equipping turkey vultures (and turkeys) with ADS-B as fast as we can. But since the birds have a right to disagree, most of them are declining to equip since their cost would be onerous <cue tongue in cheek>

No government rebate program?
 
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