What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Getting out of an RV-8 in an emergency

donaziza

Well Known Member
From: "Gus Funnell" <[email protected]> Save Address

To: "Don Oberlander" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency
Date: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:24:17 AM [View Source]

"To all RV 8 drivers" I sent this letter to Vans and thought I would sure their thoughts with y'all.

Don




Different canopies may behave differently, and of course the airspeed is
critical. At slow speeds you can definitely open it, at high speed, maybe not.

I am aware of at least one guy who exited an 8 in the air, so it is possible.
Alas, he did it without a parachute so we don't have a first hand report.

Vans



On 27 Oct 2007 at 1:08, Don Oberlander wrote:

Forwarded by: "Support" <support>
Forwarded to: gusf
Date forwarded: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 06:16:28 -0800
From: "Don Oberlander" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency
Date sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:08:47 -0400

> Hi Van's,
>
> I'm sure you've probably been asked this many times before, but
> I'm new to RV's. I think I've read in " Van's Air Force" (in the
> last couple of months), that in an emergency situation in an RV 8 (
> ie engine failure-forced landing, or aircraft on fire),
>
> 1> you can open the canopy just before landing (engine failure), or
> you can pop it in the air (fire), in order to bail out, it may or
> may not take the vertical stabilizer off---- TO---- you can't open
> the canopy at all at flying speed-it simply won't open, ie a
> parachute is worthless. WHICH IS CORRECT??
>
> 2> Has anyone actually done any of this? I can't imagine the canopy
> wouldn't open in the air--I would "think" it "would" open with a
> bang and tear off.
>
> My thoughts were "in an emergency forced landing" pop it just before
> touch down, so as not to trapped inside, but I don't really know if
> my thinking is flawed or not after what I've read. I've got a big
> hunting knife inside which from my Navy training said "thrust
> straight up at the apex of the canopy and it well shatter". I guess
> if you flipped over and were upside down, you'd be trying to come
> out of the side of the fuselage with the hunting knife, assuming
> your head was still attached. (OK gruesome stuff, I know, but you
> have to plan ahead-no matter what).
>
> Anyway, you get the idea of what I'm trying to ask. What is or is
> not correct?
>


****E-MAIL PRIVILEGED INFORMATION****


From: "Gus Funnell" <[email protected]> Save Address

To: "Don Oberlander" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency
Date: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:24:17 AM [View Source]




Different canopies may behave differently, and of course the airspeed is
critical. At slow speeds you can definitely open it, at high speed, maybe not.

I am aware of at least one guy who exited an 8 in the air, so it is possible.
Alas, he did it without a parachute so we don't have a first hand report.

Vans



On 27 Oct 2007 at 1:08, Don Oberlander wrote:

Forwarded by: "Support" <support>
Forwarded to: gusf
Date forwarded: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 06:16:28 -0800
From: "Don Oberlander" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency
Date sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:08:47 -0400

> Hi Van's,
>
> I'm sure you've probably been asked this many times before, but
> I'm new to RV's. I think I've read in " Van's Air Force" (in the
> last couple of months), that in an emergency situation in an RV 8 (
> ie engine failure-forced landing, or aircraft on fire),
>
> 1> you can open the canopy just before landing (engine failure), or
> you can pop it in the air (fire), in order to bail out, it may or
> may not take the vertical stabilizer off---- TO---- you can't open
> the canopy at all at flying speed-it simply won't open, ie a
> parachute is worthless. WHICH IS CORRECT??
>
> 2> Has anyone actually done any of this? I can't imagine the canopy
> wouldn't open in the air--I would "think" it "would" open with a
> bang and tear off.
>
> My thoughts were "in an emergency forced landing" pop it just before
> touch down, so as not to trapped inside, but I don't really know if
> my thinking is flawed or not after what I've read. I've got a big
> hunting knife inside which from my Navy training said "thrust
> straight up at the apex of the canopy and it well shatter". I guess
> if you flipped over and were upside down, you'd be trying to come
> out of the side of the fuselage with the hunting knife, assuming
> your head was still attached. (OK gruesome stuff, I know, but you
> have to plan ahead-no matter what).
>
> Anyway, you get the idea of what I'm trying to ask. What is or is
> not correct?
>


****E-MAIL PRIVILEGED INFORMATION****
 
Last edited:
#2 getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

If any of you RV 8 guys out there have more to add to my first thread on getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency, and Vans response, I'd love to hear from you.

Don
 
Don, A friend of mine recently lost an engine in his RV-8A and landed in a field. The nose wheel dug in (should have had a tail wheel) and flipped it on its back. The canopy shattered and he and his wife were trapped for about an hour before rescuers got to them. Just scratches and bruises, thankfully, but it was frightening. In this case, escape was not possible because the canopy shattered and they were up against the dirt with only a tiny bit of daylight on one side and not enough room to get out. Opening the canopy before touchdown might be an option, but it would probably slam shut on touchdown since there is nothing to keep it back. Also, the canopy does provide some impact protection if it flips. I have tried to open mine in flight and it will only open at very low speeds, and then only a little. Some people put pull pins (like gear pins) in the front attachments so you could pull them and push the canopy up in order to bail out. If you want to wear a parachute, I think this is the best option. Good luck. --Sam Ward--
 
Recent First Hand Experience

After having recently been involved in a crash, with my RV8, here are my thoughts.
I was pinned in at the leg and couldn't get out without help.
I saw fuel coming out of the wing.
My back was hurt, but I could move around enough to turn off the master. After that, if there wouldn't have been help, I don't know what I would have done. The canopy came open on it's own, so that wasn't a problem, but I would have liked to have had a fire extinguisher at hand. It would have needed to have been mounted on the fuselage side, perhaps under the arm rest to be reachable to me, since I ended up laying down across the pilot and back seats. (The pilot seat back failed downward and allowed me and the seat to go down under the seat back support, explaining the bump on the back of my head.)
Something to use as a pry bar or canopy breaker would have been nice. I had one in my RV6 that replaced the right hand stick. Need something similar in the RV8. But it has to be able to be reached after the crash.
Also, a metal snips was required to get me out of the wreckage. I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to have one of these somewhere. With a snips and a pry bar, you could do a lot to save yourself.
I think a cell phone is absolutely imperative! It may be your only method to summon help at a deserted airport or other site. I'll keep mine in my pocket, rather than loose in the plane, for all future flights.
Assume that you will be injured, or pinned, in any kind of crash, so having these tools in a reachable location is a must. I guess you have to be creative here, since you never know what condition you or your plane will be in.
By the way, once you are out, and possibly injured, you'll want a first aid kit, at least somewhere in the plane, so you can get at it post crash.
If you are going to crash, try do it where you will get immediate help. I can't thank all of the people who helped me, and are still helping me, enough. The RV and aviation community is wonderful. I can't say that enough! But, my next plane will have all of the above tools in it somewhere, at a minimum.
 
I keep the cell phone in my upper flight suit pocket and a pointed safety hammer in the leg pocket to break the canopy in case of a flip over. My 6A canopy is hard to pull back even 3 inches at anything over 30 knots and it closes itself again anyway. Front release pins would probably allow the canopy to be pulled off the aircraft automatically due to the low pressure on its top surface- ok if you are wearing a chute and out of options.:eek:
 
I keep the cell phone in my upper flight suit pocket and a pointed safety hammer in the leg pocket to break the canopy in case of a flip over. My 6A canopy is hard to pull back even 3 inches at anything over 30 knots and it closes itself again anyway. Front release pins would probably allow the canopy to be pulled off the aircraft automatically due to the low pressure on its top surface- ok if you are wearing a chute and out of options.:eek:

If the safety hammer is one of those plastic units with the metal tips that are sold in Bed, Bath, and Beyond or other such places, I recommend you test it.

I bought one and intended to mount it in my -8. Before I did, I took some left-over pieces of plexi from the canopy and tried to break it. I hit it as hard as I could and barely scratched it. I threw the thing away.

YMMV

Karl
 
If the safety hammer is one of those plastic units with the metal tips that are sold in Bed, Bath, and Beyond or other such places, I recommend you test it.

I bought one and intended to mount it in my -8. Before I did, I took some left-over pieces of plexi from the canopy and tried to break it. I hit it as hard as I could and barely scratched it. I threw the thing away.

YMMV

Karl

A few years back one of the car mags took one of these things to a junk yard to test. Not only couldn't they break a car window with it, they couldn't cut a seat belt either.

Total junk.
 
If the safety hammer is one of those plastic units with the metal tips that are sold in Bed, Bath, and Beyond or other such places, I recommend you test it.

I bought one and intended to mount it in my -8. Before I did, I took some left-over pieces of plexi from the canopy and tried to break it. I hit it as hard as I could and barely scratched it. I threw the thing away.

YMMV

Karl

I tested it when I got it on some old 3/16 plexi. Had to hit it pretty hard but it would shatter it. Now how hard would it be to swing it with this much force while you are hanging upside down in the harness? Pretty hard I'm thinking. I do have a hatchet in the survival kit however and some big screwdrivers in the tool kit...:D

I'll bust that sucka somehow.:)
 
Karl is right - those little orange hammers with the point are made to bust car windows....at least, that is the kind of thing we use in fire/rescue work sometimes. I can't really imagine swinging it hard enough to bust plex while hanging upside-down in my harness...
 
Karl is right - those little orange hammers with the point are made to bust car windows....at least, that is the kind of thing we use in fire/rescue work sometimes.

Not to be picky or anything, but they are for tempered glass, usually the side windows of cars. Wont work on laminated glass, such as the windshield.

Lots of firemen also use a spring loaded center punch.
 
fire extinguisher

Maybe if you're going to carry a fire extinguisher, a CO2 one would be more useful for freezing the canopy prior to attempting to break it. It may also be useful for putting out fires! :)
 
Not to be picky or anything, but they are for tempered glass, usually the side windows of cars. Wont work on laminated glass, such as the windshield.

Lots of firemen also use a spring loaded center punch.


Absolutely correct - and I've carried one of those spring loaded punches in my bunker coat for years. The really funny thing is that I always thought it was designed as a window-breaker - it wasn't until I started building the RV that I found out it was a center punch!:eek:

Paul
 
...........but I would have liked to have had a fire extinguisher at hand. It would have needed to have been mounted on the fuselage side, perhaps under the arm rest to be reachable to me.

Steve, Thanks for the informative and very illuminating writeup. Your unfortunate first person experience certainly validates some of my thoughts on the subject. I do have the "Bubble Buster" installed as the right stick in the -6A but you are right, an equally easier way should be found for use in the -8 series. Perhaps a fire extinguisher could be developed with a hardened tip on its bottom to serve as a battering ram if need be. But that might pose other safety issues.......

 
Last edited:
Here is another location in the 8 accessible to the pilot.
Test%20Flight%20Day%20007.jpg
 
9MM or something

Am I the only one that has a gun packed in my RV ???? Yes it is legal if you have a conceiled weapon permit, but you have to understand the rules, where you can go in and out of legally with a gun. Question is,,,, if you were to go down in the middle of no where, you might think about packing a 9MM or something like that. One nice thing about a gun/pistol is shooting the dang plexi to pieces and hunt for food if needed or to protect yourself from whatever. I never leave the house without it as you never know what's going to happen down the road. This is one survival tool that can save your life. Trust me, pack your gun as your best friend if your not Superman or Rambo!!!! In my state, Oklahoma, you can apply and go through the course to acquire a permit to do this, I'm not saying to do this, but check your laws and regs and take this for what it's worth, survival is the key.
 
Last edited:
Amen...

......to Allen's suggestion. However, methinks that many more carry a weapon than care to admit on here:cool:

Yes,
 
Maybe if you're going to carry a fire extinguisher, a CO2 one would be more useful for freezing the canopy prior to attempting to break it. It may also be useful for putting out fires! :)

DO NOT USE A FIRE ENTINGUISHER TO FREEZE THE CANOPY!

I don't mean to be harsh about this, but that CO2 is also very deadly and I would hate for someone to use this advise and parish from it. Because your enclosed in the canapy with in a few breaths after using the extinguisher you would become very dizy pass out and most likely expire from carbon dioxide poisening.
 
I also have a concealed permit to carry a weapon but what about igniting fuel vapors from the blast? Just make sure you have two bullets.;)
 
Rescue

I also have a concealed permit to carry a weapon but what about igniting fuel vapors from the blast? Just make sure you have two bullets.;)
Remind me not to try to rescue you guys that are packin'. Just as I show up to try to get you out you'll put a couple in my kneecap! :)
 
Getting out of RV in an emergency

Harbor Freight sells a $3 combination ax, hammer, and pry bar that I've velcroed under my arm rest. Could be used to break canopy or to chop through the fuselage skin.
 
Slider or Tip-up canopy...

A friend and I were discussing the differences between the sliding and tip-up canopies Vans offers on the RV7, since he's plotting to get started on one.

I thought one advantage of the slider was that if you got over on your back, it could still be opened. The tip-up would leave you trapped.

Am I correct???
 
Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

I appreciate all the answers, guys, especially the "gun" guys. But out of 24 some answers, nobody seems to know "for sure" about being able to get out with a parachute?? Lets say you're out doing octa-flugerons and you get into a flat spin, or something where the only way to stay alive is hit the silk?

Anyone??

Don
 
A friend and I were discussing the differences between the sliding and tip-up canopies Vans offers on the RV7, since he's plotting to get started on one.

I thought one advantage of the slider was that if you got over on your back, it could still be opened. The tip-up would leave you trapped.

Am I correct???

Not specific to an RV, for I have absolutely no idea, but I would imagine in general any slider would be pretty hard (read impossible) to get open by yourself from inside the plane if you flipped.

But then again, I've been wrong on many occasion.
 
I appreciate all the answers, guys, especially the "gun" guys. But out of 24 some answers, nobody seems to know "for sure" about being able to get out with a parachute?? Lets say you're out doing octa-flugerons and you get into a flat spin, or something where the only way to stay alive is hit the silk?

Anyone??

Don


No one has *ever* walked away from a botched octa-flugeron...might as well leave the parachute at home...
 
Last edited:
I thought one advantage of the slider was that if you got over on your back, it could still be opened. The tip-up would leave you trapped.
Take a look at the scale drawings of the slider 7 on Van's website. Lay a straight edge along the line from the tip of the VS to the top of the cowl (simulating the ground while upside down.) Keep in mind that the canopy has to go up about an inch before it goes aft.

I think you'll have your answer. But you might not like it.
 
what about carrying a small jack. It might give enough lift to get out of the plane. You would obviously need a flat plate if you are in soft soil [kept in seat bottom]. The jack could also double as your puncture repair kit. If you plan it well and know what to do, ie where to jack etc , I think it may work.
 
Getting out of the RV-8 in flight

I appreciate all the answers, guys, especially the "gun" guys. But out of 24 some answers, nobody seems to know "for sure" about being able to get out with a parachute?? Lets say you're out doing octa-flugerons and you get into a flat spin, or something where the only way to stay alive is hit the silk?

Anyone??

Don

Don:

The best solution I've seen is that which is used by Scott Jordan. Scott cut slots in his canopy rails just aft of the full closed position. The objective in using the slots is to open the canopy latch, slide the canopy aft about 2-3 inches and then push up on the canopy. The slipstream will pick up the leading edge of the canopy and pull it off the airplane. With the seatbelt unbuckled the aircraft is then rolled inverted and the sick is pushed for exit from the pilot seat.

Still, that's a lot of steps to take in an emergency situation. But I have to agree that the idea of jettisoning the canopy leaves the best chance for a timely exit of the airframe.
 
Don:

.... With the seatbelt unbuckled the aircraft is then rolled inverted and the sick is pushed for exit from the pilot seat.

Still, that's a lot of steps to take in an emergency situation. But I have to agree that the idea of jettisoning the canopy leaves the best chance for a timely exit of the airframe.

Having bounced off the tail of a Pitts S2B on exit, I think pushing the stick while inverted would put the tail in a very uncomfortable position for exit.

If I could control the plane well enough to roll inverted and stop I think I'd rather just slow it down level and hop over the side.

But then again, "you'd be amazed the things a dying man can do".

Rob
 
escape tools

I was thinking about this situation of being upside down trapped in your AC.

What do you guys think of a battery powered "roto zip" saw tool.

They're not very expensive or large; 30k RPM.

I think they would rip through aluminum & plexiglass pretty fast.

Just a thought....

Dave
 
I'm right here

Don,
Here I am. Yes, I cut slots in the canopy rails as Jon described. Many have used quick release pins in the canopy frame but I was concerned about the ability to pull two pins in the frame as as I was tumbling out of control. In theory, I only have to unlatch the canopy in the normal maner and push it back a couple inches and it will be gone. I certainly make no gaurantees if you decide to adopt this mod but I think it is better than anything else I have seen.

The bit about rolling inverted and pushing was Jon's addition. In reality, I would likely just go over the side. Rolling inverted, but not pushing, might be an option in a situation where the plane was contrallable but not landable (think S. Tucker). I do recall a "technique" in the T-38 when the seat failed to fire was to put in full nose down trim while holding level flight. Wheb you were ready to go you simply let go. I do not know if this was ever actually done. I suppose we could ask Danny King but he refused to punch out of the 38 so he probably wouldn't know ;-)

Incidently, Kevin Horton has mentioned that he intends to attach a lanyard to the airframe to act as a static line when he is testing. Sounds like another excellent idea. If the lanyard is 30' or maybe 50' long you will have to walk quit a distance from the airplane before you deploy the chute on the ground after forgetting to disconnect it!

Scott A. Jordan
N733JJ
600+ hours
 
Last edited:
Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

Hi Scott, thanks for the reply. When I was out shopping for RV 8's last spring, I believe I saw (on 2 other RV 8's) what you apparently have on your plane, but can't really remember what it looked like. I thought it was just for taxing with the canopy sightly open, ( for those hot summer days), and couldn't reach all the way back for a fully opened canopy.

Any chance of you putting some pictures here of what you've got?

You said remember S tucker--you'll have to tell me that story, I don't know it. Also the 30 to 50 foot lanyard? - and the parachute? You lost me on that one??

Don
 
Sean jumped..

......out of his Pitts last year just before Sun 'n Fun when he lost elevator control. Something became disconnected, either the elevator pushrod or at the stick......he didn't know then or say. This happened shortly after takeoff so he nursed it up to 8-9 thousand feet with the trim and bailed. You can google Sean Tucker, world renowned aerobatic champion/airshow performer.

He told the entire story at Sun 'n Fun last year.

Regards,
 
It is very simply realy, I'll try and get a picture of the slot here later today.

The lanyard is simply a "static line" like the military jumpers often use or what was once used for first time sport jumpers. One end attached to the "D ring" and the other to the aircraft. If the jumper for some reason does not or can't pull the ring, the chute will deploy automatically.

Interestingly, a friend of mine, that is an experienced jumper, bailed out of an Ultimate (modified Pitts) this past weekend. When he released his harness (after the canopy) he was immediatly ejected from the aircraft. He got a bruise on his leg, l from hitting an unknown part of the aircraft on the way out. It could just as easily been his head that hit something so he was greatful he also wears a helmet.


Scott
 
Last edited:
You can search for prior threads about this, or Doug has a link to his instructions at the top left of the scree, look for "insert pics" in the pale blue box.
 
Canopy release slots

OK, lets see if this works...Here are a couple pictures. The first shows the relative location of the slots. The actual positionis not important, just make sure they are not in a place where you would hold the canopy and potentialy lose it accidently.

The second picture is a closeup to show the size of the slot. A larger slot would make it easier to line up and jettison the canopy but would also increase the odds of losing it by accident. The decisions are all yours.

Scott A. Jordan

1000735lq7.jpg


1000736ou2.jpg
 
Last edited:
Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

Hi Scott, Guess what? When I click on your 2 links, it says "album not found"

Don
 
It has taken several attempts with two different hosts but I finally got something in there. The photos are large but at this point I will leave well enough alone. If you wish, I can e-mail you a good picture.

If you are a member of the RV-8 Yahoo group, you can also see the phots there in a reasonable size. A much easier sytem than here in my opinion.

Scott
 
Last edited:
Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

Hi again Scott, hope I don't come across as a whiner, but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at due to the size of the pictures. If its OK with you, here's my e mail address:

[email protected]
770 205 2454
 
An Alternative....

don,

One other way to do this, as Scott mentioned, is to use Pip Pins to connect the rollers to the frame (instead of bolts), and then pull the pins on the ground after you have latched the canopy. The canopy is held down firmly by the fiberglass windshield bow overlap, and with this method, you only have to unlatch, push back an inch, then push up - same as Scott's "slot" design, but doesn't require hitting the slots. Not sure if this is better or worse....just different. It's not a huge deal if you forget to put the pins back in before you open it on the ground either - gravity is your friend!

Paul
 
I considered this as well. Simply treat teh canopy as we did an ejection seat and everything would be fine. As you say, it would be easier to jetison the canopy than trying to hit the slots. Two reasons I didn;t do it. I was sure I would eventually loose the canopy on the ground due to my forgetting to put the pins in. Also, the holes were already drilled in my frame and the pins would stick into the cockpit when I flew without a chute and kept the pins in place.

Scott
 
Getting out of an RV 8 in an emergency

Hi Paul,

Saw yours (and Scott's answer to you). As you guys have probably figured out by now, I was a buyer, not a builder. I already sent an email to Scott, but Paul, I'd have to ask you for some really good pictures of what you've got, becuse I have no idea of what you have looks like.

Then if I like your idea or Scott's, I'd have to get someone to do it for me. (Money-money-money)

Don
 
Back
Top