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Insurance dilemma

RVDan

Well Known Member
Patron
Just seeing if anyone else has climbed this hill successfully. I am an experienced RV pilot, with a friend who wants to come in partnership with me. He is private pilot glider, which he obtained as a student of mine. He has 300 plus hours and will need to add ASEL to his ticket. He wants to do the training in the RV. As long as he is partner, receiving flight instruction, is legal. However, it seems that no underwriters will insure for primary flight instruction in an RV. The broker told me that they used to insure for this but not currently. Anyone out there have a possible solution, other than my friend getting his training in a certified airplane?
 
Have you talked to Gallagher? My co-owner did his Sport Pilot training and check ride in our RV-12, no problem at all. They said it wasn't a problem even for a solo student pilot, as long as he's flying legally.
 
Hmmm that?s interesting as I just talked to AirPower about the possibility of my wife going solo in the RV4 we just bought and she didn?t think it would be an issue. She?s working on her glider rating as well right now.
 
I'm having the same problem finding someone who will cover my Grandson in my ELSA Legend Cub. He is ready to start primary training.
 
Is there anyway the student can just fly and log Duel Recieved in the begining. Than at a later date with flight "time in type", re petition the insurance and see if the result is different?
 
Is there anyway the student can just fly and log Duel Recieved in the begining. Than at a later date with flight "time in type", re petition the insurance and see if the result is different?

Sure. Insurance is not an FAA or other legal requirement. But of course, there would be no coverage during those first hours. Neither hull nor liability.
 
You know where this is going. These waters have been tip-toe'd into before on VAF.

If there's an incident requiring insurance to kick in, it wasn't dual instruction - "we were just up joyriding..."
 
Thats kinda where I was heading. During a duel flight, the CFI is responsible, and later when solo time is ready, re-petiion with time in typy logged. I could stand a better chance than zero.

Or, go fly the private with a 152 somewhere and revisit the RV idea when the private is complete.
 
What about liability only. Have your friend self insure the air frame. I mean they have enough to pay the whole value of airplane. He bends it he buys it.

Prices on hull insurance for experimental aircraft has gone nuts. I looked into instructing in an RV for training. Hull insurance was too high. Liability was not bad.

Dual in an experimental for Pvt? I'm a current CFI, but I have not given primary training in years. The issue I recall is finding an examiner willing to do check ride in an experimental.

As was suggested go find a C152 and knock out the Pvt and get transition training from someone in their RV. Then revisit the RV partnership idea. Although he has category (airplane) Low time in class (SEL), and low time in type, insurance will be high.
 
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s. The issue I recall is finding an examiner willing to do check ride in an experimental.

As was suggested go find a C152 and knock out the Pvt and get transition training from someone in their RV. .

Our local DPE is willing to give check rides in an RV. The issue is transition training in the cfi?s airplane, under a LODA. Several of us who used to do this have dropped out, due to the high cost of insuring this activity. Given how much insurance companies wanted to cover dual instruction to licensed pilots, I guess I?m not too surprised that they don?t want to touch student pilots flying solo.
 
This thread is disheartening.
I am currently a glider student and will want to get ASEL after I am done with that. Still considering aircraft options but doing at least the last part of training in a RV, kitfox, or old tailwheel is of strong interest to me. Sounds like insurance for anything other than a spam can is just going to be crazy.

Wondering if there really is any options.
 
Regular spam can insurance is going up to. It?s all relative to what your used to. My lancair cost 3300 this year to insure, no open pilot policy and I listed two lower time lancair guys, but have thousands of hours in everything else but that doesn?t matter.
 
I guess what I am seeing here is consistent with what I have found. I tried Falcon who has the EAA deal and no success there either. Sounds like something
EAA could address for its members.
 
This thread is disheartening.
I am currently a glider student and will want to get ASEL after I am done with that. Still considering aircraft options but doing at least the last part of training in a RV, kitfox, or old tailwheel is of strong interest to me.

FWIW, if you're getting your primary training in a glider anyway, you're already going to know how to use your feet. Going to a Cessna for your PPL and then coming back to a tailwheel later isn't going to be a huge problem.
 
Renter's Insurance

Has anyone tried aircraft renter's insurance for the student? This is a way a student has insurance in a rental aircraft. The insurance follows the student for the solo flights.
 
non-owned aircraft/renters insurance could be an option; as it doesn't sound like the friend is partner yet.

You couldn't charge rent without a LODA but i believe it's still legal for primary training if you just let him use it. It's my understanding he could pay for consumables such as gas and oil, but you couldn't charge more than that.

So I guess it depends on how good of friend he is if you're just willing to give him the time it takes for him to be able to get onto your normal insurance, he could buy in at that time.
 
When I was getting my ASEL and looking for a RV7A I was getting quotes for $3500, however if I had my PPL ASEL before purchasing plane it was only $1100 year. Was worth the wait. Did the ASEL in a rental 172 (tax free as a student), bought the RV7A with 42hrs total time, then transitioned on the delivery home (and a few more days at the end of the delivery with Mike Seager!) Really was money well spent!
Jon
 
Renters insurance

Renter's insurance has more downsides.

For example, if a "renter" pilot has a bird strike, the renter's insurance will decline to pay because it's not a renter's fault! The owner's insurance will also decline to pay because the pilot is not approved.

And yes, I verified the information above with the agent when I had a renter's insurance (as far as i remember I spoke with avemco, but they are all the same).
 
Renter's insurance has more downsides.

For example, if a "renter" pilot has a bird strike, the renter's insurance will decline to pay because it's not a renter's fault! The owner's insurance will also decline to pay because the pilot is not approved.

And yes, I verified the information above with the agent when I had a renter's insurance (as far as i remember I spoke with avemco, but they are all the same).

And...as I understand it, if a claim is paid to a renter, the insurer then sues the owner of the plane to recover their loss.
 
I have heard of this the other way too.

Lets say I fly a friends plane and something bad happens. My friends insurance will pay him than sue me unless I am named with a waiver of subrogation.

Unfortunately I have had to insist on the waiver if they would like training in their plane.

I Have also carried CFI insurance in case something really bad happens.

Too bad that's the world we live in.
 
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I have heard of this the other way too.

Lets say I fly a friends plane and something bad happens. My friends insurance will pay him than sue me unless I am named with a waiver of subrogation.

Unfortunately I have had to insist on the waiver if they would like training in their plane.

I Have also carried CFI insurance in case something really bad happens.

Too bad that's the world we live in.

The two insurance companies I work with have never heard of an insurance company suing after an accident. Basically he said my airplanes weren?t worth enough to go to court over. Maybe if it was a half million or more and the pilot crashing the airplane was flat out negligent.

Have you heard about it happening anywhere?
 
The two insurance companies I work with have never heard of an insurance company suing after an accident. Basically he said my airplanes weren?t worth enough to go to court over. Maybe if it was a half million or more and the pilot crashing the airplane was flat out negligent.

Have you heard about it happening anywhere?

I have personal knowledge of the insurance company suing after a $60,000 hull loss on a Piper Comanche, on a $100,000 liability policy.
 
Our solution was to buy a Cessna 150 Aerobat, my middle son passed his check ride in it last fall after about 2 months and my daughter is working on her pilots license. Insurance on it is $960 a year with 4 named pilots (2 students) at a value of $41K. We have owned it for about 9 months and it looks like the prices on them have significantly increased. It is ADS-B compliant and IFR capable with a 430W so they can also do their IFR training in it.

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Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
N6120F C-150 Aerobat
 
And...as I understand it, if a claim is paid to a renter, the insurer then sues the owner of the plane to recover their loss.

The two insurance companies I work with have never heard of an insurance company suing after an accident. Basically he said my airplanes weren?t worth enough to go to court over. Maybe if it was a half million or more and the pilot crashing the airplane was flat out negligent.

Have you heard about it happening anywhere?

I think the more proper term is subrogation.
 
I have personal knowledge of the insurance company suing after a $60,000 hull loss on a Piper Comanche, on a $100,000 liability policy.

Any more background? I assume they where flying on the open pilot policy and something happened, could you elaborate some? Thanks
 
I have heard of a renter who had a prop strike. The insurance company pays the flight school for the damages then sues the student to recover their payout to the school.

I try to explain to many students the importance of getting non-owned insurance if they are going to rent.

In my case, I have my RV insurance through Gallager. If I am flying someone else's airplane and I damage it, Gallager will pay. But if the incident was due to a mechanical, than they will not.

I also had a CFI policy for liability and litigation if something happened with my CFI hat on.
 
I also had a CFI policy for liability and litigation if something happened with my CFI hat on.
You got a hat? All I got was a dumb CFI certificate. What do they look like. Does it say Make Aviators Great Airmen? Oh I have seen those. :D

Would you care to disclose your plane and CFI premiums... If not understand.
 
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Any more background? I assume they where flying on the open pilot policy and something happened, could you elaborate some? Thanks

A good question. I assume this means that the plane will be covered if the non-owner pilots has an accident. However, it's unclear whether or not the insurance company has the right to subrogate from that pilot, flying under the "open pilot" provision. I am guessing they can, so interested to hear from gallagher or other knowledgable person. I had thought that only named pilots and the owner(s) are indemnified (i.e. free from subrogation).
 
A good question. I assume this means that the plane will be covered if the non-owner pilots has an accident. However, it's unclear whether or not the insurance company has the right to subrogate from that pilot, flying under the "open pilot" provision. I am guessing they can, so interested to hear from gallagher or other knowledgable person. I had thought that only named pilots and the owner(s) are indemnified (i.e. free from subrogation).

That is exactly what my insurance guy told me, they can sue to collect from anyone not named.

Isn?t insurance fun?!?! Just don?t crash ...
 
If you are flying an airplane that belongs to someone else, the safe thing to do is to get added to the insurance policy as a named insured, an approved pilot, and to get a waiver of subrogation. If you are approved as a named pilot subject to training requirements, be sure to fulfill those requirements and to document them. Then if you damage the airplane, the owner gets paid and the insurance company cannot subrogate against you.
 
Any more background? I assume they where flying on the open pilot policy and something happened, could you elaborate some? Thanks

I actually do not know too much more, as it was a friends airplane, and while I know him, I do not know the pilot. You're correct, I do believe that he was flying under the open pilot clause. I've heard talk that that "friend" of his was actually giving instruction in the airplane, but it isn't for sure that was the case. What is for sure is that the insurance company sued the pilot that was flying the airplane, after paying the aircraft owner for this loss.
 
If you are flying an airplane that belongs to someone else, the safe thing to do is to get added to the insurance policy as a named insured, an approved pilot, and to get a waiver of subrogation. If you are approved as a named pilot subject to training requirements, be sure to fulfill those requirements and to document them. Then if you damage the airplane, the owner gets paid and the insurance company cannot subrogate against you.

Well stated.
 
You got a hat? All I got was a dumb CFI certificate. What do they look like. Does it say Make Aviators Great Airmen? Oh I have seen those. :D

Would you car to disclose your plane and CFI premiums... If not understand.

I think it was like 450 / yr. You got a discount through Avemco if you were a National Association of Flight Instructors member.

Avemco gives hats.
 
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