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Oshkosh NOTAM 2019

C'mon, Mark. Falcon Flight is a very small percentage of the arrivals, and they are card-carrying formation pilots. The Bonanzas number in the hundreds. They practice together and have been doing the mass arrival for a long time. They get airplanes on the ground faster than individually using the Fisk arrival.

No, don't start thinking we're going to get a bunch of RV's together somewhere so we can land in formation. :)

Vic
 
2 abreast !! OMG LOL
Falcon Flight (RV's) in 2016 landed in 4-ship echelons!
Ok, not exactly abreast but pretty much the same thing.

Mark

2016 was the 3rd time the group landed in 4-ship echelons for arrival at AirVenture that I was in.
 
If the FAA ignores the issue they had with their controllers, which in my opinion was the single biggest problem, I don't expect to see anything different than last years cluster #@$#. It's a bloody miracle their wasn't a midair on Sunday last year.

Blaming the pilots for the conditions or not following "procedures" is baloney, the ATC situation was totally out of control.

I was in the mess when controllers were calling for 1 mile and then 2 mile spacing, and landing 1 aircraft on a runway at a time.
I can barely see an aircraft a mile in front of me, 2 miles no way. With 2 mile spacing they'd be lined up back to Oklahoma.

On Monday when I returned to try again the same nonsense was going on with ATC, nobody landing and no one being "allowed" past Ripon, I got the feeling the controllers just didn't feel like dealing with it so the easy way was just keep telling people to go away.

Not that the FAA is looking at this and i'm pretty sure my opinion doesn't matter a bit, but I agree with Walt 100%.

I was in that mess on Sunday because Saturday's weather kept me from getting North. The very first thing I noticed as I was listening prior to arriving was that ATC was asking for 1 mile separation. There simply isn't enough airspace on the map to be 1 mile apart. There were no less than 200 planes holding . . . Simple Math will tell you that equals to 200 miles. Obviously they don't have everyone at once in a line but if you measure around Green Lake before getting to RIPON, then from there to RIPON then to FISK, it's appx 35 miles. At 1 mile apart and literally hundreds of planes trying to get to FISK, the math just doesn't add up. Take Rush Lake out of the picture for a minute and you'll get a good understanding what happened last year. Last year there were 4 to 5 wide around the lake then ATC would simply say, "Okay RIPON is now open" and everyone would head towards RIPON (even cutting across the lake). Basically they were asking approximately 200 airplanes to line up 1 mile apart from RIPON to FISK and obviously that wasn't possible so they would close RIPON again and tell everyone that had not made it to RIPON to Hold over Green Lake. If you were between RIPON and FISK, you held over Rush Lake. This happened over and over again and planes kept coming in and adding to the problem.

How many years has the FAA been asking for 1/2 miles separation? Why did they change it last year? I believe going back to 1/2 mile separation and making better usage of ALL runways without closing runways for low passes for our military airplanes during high traffic time will be a HUGE step towards fixing last year's fiasco.
 
I think I have written enough here already about everyone's hard work and how a lot of people are working on LOTS of areas. For those of you who still just want to blame the controllers, you are welcome to your opinion.

The rest of us will work on the areas WE can control and TRUST that the others are working on their areas.

I'm done here with this thread. Watch for more info on this in columns from Jack, Charlie, and Paul.

Vic
 
Pilot Behavior at AOPA Frederick Fly-in

After flying in to the AOPA event I feel compelled to make an addition to this thread, reinforcing several comments made in earlier posts. Certainly, the issues surrounding the arrival traffic problems at OSH have many facets, and this post is only addressed to one of those. Admittedly the Frederick event is very small compared to AirVenture, but the issue I am about to discuss applies to both situations.

As background information, this event had been well publicized for months in advance, and an arrival publication was readily available outlining in great detail the arrival and departure procedures. A few minutes study of this document should have been sufficient to get everyone briefed and ready to comply with the published procedures. The weather was good VFR, not perfect but perfectly safe.

Allow me to relate just a few of the incidents I observed, all related to pilot behavior.

While inbound on the published arrival route, and listening to FDK tower, it was obvious that there were several airplanes already in the pattern, and a gaggle of them coming down the published leg to the turn-in point at Fort Detric. Despite this, a call came in from an RV-8 flight of two requesting a 360-degree overhead approach. The tower ignored the first request. A minute later the second request came in and the controller responded, keeping his tone only slightly irritated, that there was heavy traffic in the area, and he would try to accommodate the request if possible.

After I turned in towards the airport and was about to enter downwind for runway 5 I heard the tower repeatedly calling out traffic to another airplane, and not getting any response. I figured out pretty quickly that that traffic was me! Soon after I picked up the traffic visually on a collision course and took evasive action.

After the noontime STOL demonstration a whole lot of airplanes decided to leave, resulting in a long lineup for the one departure runway. The published departure procedure was to follow the flagmen, and only contact tower when number one for takeoff. The trip to the runway took an hour. While the vast majority of the pilots in line were correctly and politely following procedures, a few were not, and those guys contributed to a long and frustrating process. Some pilots were calling in for takeoff clearance while they were several slots back from number one, causing confusion with the tower. One pilot apparently was not hearing the tower and kept calling for clearance. Finally, a good Samaritan in a Cirrus taxied up bedside him and gave him hand signals. Many pilots had filed IFR, even though the weather was good VFR, and that slowed up the whole line while they received their releases. One almost humorous radio call was from someone about 20 airplanes back asking for an intersection departure. One could almost hear everyone else thinking, ?nice try, buddy.?

Sorry for the long rant. I?m just trying to make the point that while we can blame the FAA, EAA, and everyone else for the problems at OSH, we need to accept our share of the blame as pilots. Perhaps a wider education campaign would help. Maybe there should be a required online training course before flying into OSH? More (gasp) enforcement of willful violators? I think we need to be open to some of these ideas if we are to keep OSH safe. Just sayin. OK, have at me!
 
Despite this, a call came in from an RV-8 flight of two requesting a 360-degree overhead approach.

Oh yeah, those guys. I think they were at OSH a few years ago. Bypassed the Fisk approach entirely, and 45'ed into the 27 right downwind from Lake Butte des Morts...in formation.
 
I think I have written enough here already about everyone's hard work and how a lot of people are working on LOTS of areas. For those of you who still just want to blame the controllers, you are welcome to your opinion.

The rest of us will work on the areas WE can control and TRUST that the others are working on their areas.

I'm done here with this thread. Watch for more info on this in columns from Jack, Charlie, and Paul.

Vic

Vic,
Thank you for all your efforts with HBC and this issue. I flew in Sat. morning, held for 30 min at Green lake, had to break out after Ripon because the 3 or more planes ahead of me couldn't/wouldn't manage more than 75 kts, more often 70, which is as slow as I am willing to go with my -10.
Still got in before noon.
A couple issues that I haven't heard mentioned, was apparently the grass was considered too soft for the mass arrivals to get to North 40, so during mass arrival 9/27 was used as taxiway, and the transponder issue.
I am pleased the transponder issue is resolved to the benefit of those of us with ADS-B. Now we need controllers at Fisk and Tower to have ADS-B displays to give them real time tail numbers, make/model, speed and altitude, as well as position.
Two years in a row I have seen poor performance on pilots arriving, unfamiliar with notam requirements, or just not complying, so until we clean up our act, we shouldn't be pointing fingers.
JMHO.
 
Two years in a row I have seen poor performance on pilots arriving, unfamiliar with notam requirements, or just not complying, so until we clean up our act, we shouldn't be pointing fingers.
JMHO.
First of all, thank you EAA volunteers and related support people. I do appreciate what you're doing. But I just can't let this go. I'm not an astronaut or brain surgeon, but I have been flying to Oshkosh regularly over the last 18-19 years. And to say that the pilots are any more of a factor now, or are a significantly different factor than they were 3 years ago, 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, is just not correct. I came in early in 2018 on Saturday. Sunday I sat right alongside rwy 36 and watched the landings that occurred every 1-5 mins (per plane) and listened to the controllers at FISKE *not* complying with the NOTAM.
 
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First of all, thank you EAA volunteers and related support people. I do appreciate what you're doing. But I just can't let this go. I'm not an astronaut or brain surgeon, but I have been flying to Oshkosh regularly over the last 18-19 years. And to say that the pilots are any more of a factor now, or are a different factor than they were 3 years ago, 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, is just not correct. I came in early in 2018 on Saturday. Sunday I sat right alongside rwy 36 and watched the landings that occurred every 1-5 mins (per plane) and listened to the controllers at Fiske *not* complying with the NOTAM.

Bryan,

I have been flying into OSH for the show since 1982. I agree, pilot behavior has not changed much. The problem is, there are so many more of us now, that the mistakes that are made compound much more rapidly. My point is, there is plenty of room for improvement in the pilot community. Most of us are not in a position to influence FAA or EAA or any other component of the system, but we ARE in a position to clean up our own act.

John
 
Wish I had thought of that

The text-message system is a GREAT idea.

I'd love to get a text if/when the hold gets saturated; something like "FREAKING FURBALL AT FISKE UFN" would be sufficient.

And if I inadvertently left my cell phone on at low altitude, which obviously I've never done due to FCC regulations, my in-flight situational awareness could skyrocket, all while at a distance from OSH permitting me to find a cheap hotel room.....

There will be a text message system to provide information to pilots on the way to Oshkosh to keep us informed of any status changes....
 
Hopefully this new text system works better than the existing text alert system that has been in place for years.
 
Hopefully this new text system works better than the existing text alert system that has been in place for years.

I?m not going to hold my breath. I?ve tried texting in the air before and it?s pretty marginal in my very limited experience.
 
First of all, thank you EAA volunteers and related support people. I do appreciate what you're doing. But I just can't let this go. I'm not an astronaut or brain surgeon, but I have been flying to Oshkosh regularly over the last 18-19 years. And to say that the pilots are any more of a factor now, or are a significantly different factor than they were 3 years ago, 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, is just not correct. I came in early in 2018 on Saturday. Sunday I sat right alongside rwy 36 and watched the landings that occurred every 1-5 mins (per plane) and listened to the controllers at FISKE *not* complying with the NOTAM.

You might not have been there at the same time I was Bryan, so we might have seen and heard different things but I informally debriefed lots of pilots during the week about the Sunday traffic, and stories of pilots five abreast between Ripon and Fiske, all converging on Fiske were common. Ten years ago, you rarely heard about ?road rage? - now it is pretty common all over. The same thing is happening in the air. Everyone is expecting to get ?their share? given to them, and they get angry when it isn?t. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I have no idea why the controllers starting making things up. But to use that to say that the pilots are blameless is just wrong.

The facts are simple. We, as individuals, cannot control what the controllers do, what the EAA does, what the FAA does - or what OTHER pilots do. The ONLY thing we can control is ourselves and our airplane. If we are not over the railroad tracks at 90 knots a half mile behind the plane in front, we need to break out - or we?re not complying with the NOTAM. Oh, and if I can SEE the railroad tracks...I?m not over them.

Paul
 
The facts are simple. We, as individuals, cannot control what the controllers do, what the EAA does, what the FAA does - or what OTHER pilots do. The ONLY thing we can control is ourselves and our airplane. If we are not over the railroad tracks at 90 knots a half mile behind the plane in front, we need to break out - or we?re not complying with the NOTAM. Oh, and if I can SEE the railroad tracks...I?m not over them.

Paul

The harder part is when you are following the NOTAM, but the other people around you who aren't doing so create a safety situation that you feel compelled to resolve. That was probably the thing that bothered me the most about last year - I did get myself established on the tracks a few times, with good separation between the airplane in front of me, but then someone would slide in in front of me, or start flying beside me, or whatever.

And in those situations, as right as I might have been, when it was clear that the other people weren't going to break it off, I chose to break it off. Seemed to me like the old situation where you can be "dead right."

I didn't regret my decisions then, and I don't regret them now, but it's bothersome to me that some of those pilots who chose to press on along (or somewhere in the vicinity of) the railroad tracks made it past Ripon and into OSH, while I was orbiting Green Lake. I don't like the idea that unsafe or "bad" behavior was rewarded.

Then again, maybe I just need to adjust my mindset. Maybe I'm getting too mission-oriented with the idea that landing at OSH was the "reward," whereas I arguably reaped a better reward by not compromising safety.
 
Maybe I'm getting too mission-oriented with the idea that landing at OSH was the "reward," whereas I arguably reaped a better reward by not compromising safety.

Wow!!! Now, if only everyone had this same mindset.... :) Kuddos to you!

(Sorry, I couldnt let this one go, even though I said I was done)

Vic
 
We are a month out and the EAA hasn’t published a definitive mass arrival schedule or provided any actionable information about the text alerts for arrivals.

That information needs to be published immediately so it can be communicated here, in other forums and publications, and person to person between flying buddies.

Failure to communicate a plan is every bit as bad as not having one.
 
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You might not have been there at the same time I was Bryan, so we might have seen and heard different things but I informally debriefed lots of pilots during the week about the Sunday traffic, and stories of pilots five abreast between Ripon and Fiske, all converging on Fiske were common. Ten years ago, you rarely heard about ?road rage? - now it is pretty common all over. The same thing is happening in the air. Everyone is expecting to get ?their share? given to them, and they get angry when it isn?t. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I have no idea why the controllers starting making things up. But to use that to say that the pilots are blameless is just wrong....

Paul

Just passing on a veteran controller's perspective who worked FISKE on Sunday last year. His presentation to our EAA chapter covered the Notam and changes for 2019. FWIW he mentioned that "in trail" spacing is the only effective way they can identify, meter and direct the traffic past FISKE. The controllers don't have an effective way to deal with situations where aircraft are several abreast on the arrival because they can't tell who is who and issue meaningful instructions. So making up Notam procedures by telling everyone to turn left is their response to pilots making up Notam procedures by flying up the RR tracks in a line abreast formation.

I didn't come away from the presentation with any confidence that things would necessarily be any better this year. This year, I'll be flying into Appleton and commuting to OSH from there.
 
I attended the EAA Webinar recently and they did a good job of going over all of the information in the NOTAM.

HOWEVER, a lot of how the arrivals are managed is completely up to the FAA controllers.

They briefly discussed the new Fond du Lac Diversion Procedure on page 12, but certainly not to my satisfaction. This new diversion procedure would just move the problem at Ripon/Fisk instead to the airspace over at FLD. Can you just imagine 500 airplanes all trying to call the temporary tower there to get on the ground? :eek:

IMHO, if the FLD Diversion is triggered, you'll want to head somewhere else.
 
We are a month out and the EAA hasn’t published a definitive mass arrival schedule or provided any actionable information about the text alerts for arrivals.

That information needs to be published immediately so it can be communicated here, in other forums and publications, and person to person between flying buddies.

Failure to communicate a plan is every bit as bad as not having one.

The large formation arrival info was communicated on the recent Webinar. Here is part of a screen grab that I made.

Screen-Shot-2019-06-17-at-2-03-09-PM.png
 
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We are a month out and the EAA hasn?t published a definitive mass arrival schedule or provided any actionable information about the text alerts for arrivals.

That information needs to be published immediately so it can be communicated here, in other forums and publications, and person to person between flying buddies.

Failure to communicate a plan is every bit as bad as not having one.

Here is the TEXT alert signup info. IT was in the June 12 Webinar - Tips for Flying Into AirVenture 2019.


Screen-Shot-2019-06-21-at-6-17-15-AM.png
 
Here is the TEXT alert signup info. IT was in the June 12 webinar.

Gary, thanks for watching the webinars and sharing the information here.

It is a problem (IMO) that a google search and a search of EAA?s website doesn?t turn up any of this information. Webinars are great, but making that info available on the EAA website or through a press release would make it much easier to find.
 
Gary, thanks for watching the webinars and sharing the information here.

It is a problem (IMO) that a google search and a search of EAA?s website doesn?t turn up any of this information. Webinars are great, but making that info available on the EAA website or through a press release would make it much easier to find.

Hey Kyle, I just dropped a note to EAA HQ folks suggestion they get the information more widely distributed through the media as soon as possible. I agree that they can sometimes get kind of lost in the weeds this time of year when it comes to communication, and need to be reminded that not everyone lives on teh EAA web site or the webinars....
 
Hey Kyle, I just dropped a note to EAA HQ folks suggestion they get the information more widely distributed through the media as soon as possible. I agree that they can sometimes get kind of lost in the weeds this time of year when it comes to communication, and need to be reminded that not everyone lives on teh EAA web site or the webinars....

Thanks Paul. IF I were not retired, I most likely would be asking the same questions that Kyle has been. Figured I would help others with the info I found.
 
I got a prompt response back from HQ - they pointed me to the web site for information on the text messaging (that was apparently put out there on teh 13th of June):

https://eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airv...19-AirVenture-Changes-for-Text-Message-Alerts

I pointed back that in order to really reach folks, you have to saturation bomb all available means of getting to pilots that are going to attend - too many people dont read e-blasts, or go to web sites.....at least not pilot demographics (and I know that becasue I study those numbers....)
 
I got a prompt response back from HQ - they pointed me to the web site for information on the text messaging (that was apparently put out there on teh 13th of June):

https://eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airv...19-AirVenture-Changes-for-Text-Message-Alerts

I pointed back that in order to really reach folks, you have to saturation bomb all available means of getting to pilots that are going to attend - too many people dont read e-blasts, or go to web sites.....at least not pilot demographics (and I know that becasue I study those numbers....)

The other question would be "What's the logical drill-down to get to that information?" I went to the EAA webpage and the text alerts can be found under the "Plan Your Trip" page. I would think they should fall under the "Flying In" page. That's where I had been looking for the information.

Perhaps they could link it through multiple pages on their website...
 
This year it says "leave your transponder on".

Yes, I suspect this is their (FAA) way of responding to some calls of "BS" on the numbers of aircraft circling the lakes last year - since so many had their transponders off there was no way to verify it. Now they can gather the actual data, if the controllers can ignore the constant traffic alerts being generated by the system.
 
Passing slow aircraft

I listened to the EAA webinar and twice Fred Stadler suggested passing slow aircraft on the right if there was room in front. But the Notam says no passing? Did anyone else catch that?
 
I listened to the EAA webinar and twice Fred Stadler suggested passing slow aircraft on the right if there was room in front. But the Notam says no passing? Did anyone else catch that?

That's veeery interesting. I remember him saying the same thing during the webinar last year. It stuck out like a sore thumb to me since it was in such flagrant conflict with the NOTAM.
 
Notam

I think
Be safe
Don?t do anything stupid to put you or others at risk
Watch for others
Be courteous to other pilots
Follow the NOTAM
Don?t fall into getthereitis

About sums it up.
 
Agreed

I will bail out and go around rather than pass, but why would he mention passing twice in the webinar. It sends a mixed message.
 
I will bail out and go around rather than pass, but why would he mention passing twice in the webinar. It sends a mixed message.

And gives plausible deniability to anyone busted for busting the NOTAM - not a good thing.
 
And gives plausible deniability to anyone busted for busting the NOTAM - not a good thing.

All of this is somewhat subject to judgement. Let's say you come up behind a Cub that's doing 70 miles an hour. There are 2 miles of open space in front of the Cub, and you can hear the thrum of the prop from a Comanche that's right on your tail. Are you gonna help alleviate the situation or are you gonna have the Comanche and a dozen other airplanes jammed into the mile of space immediately behind you?

It is a judgement call, but my opinion is you're better off to pass the Cub.
 
All of this is somewhat subject to judgement. Let's say you come up behind a Cub that's doing 70 miles an hour. There are 2 miles of open space in front of the Cub, and you can hear the thrum of the prop from a Comanche that's right on your tail. Are you gonna help alleviate the situation or are you gonna have the Comanche and a dozen other airplanes jammed into the mile of space immediately behind you?

It is a judgement call, but my opinion is you're better off to pass the Cub.

I don't disagree with the safety argument at all, but my issue is more with the direct and stark conflict with the NOTAM here.
 
From my perspective the biggest problem are the aircraft that can not, or worse yet, will not fly up to 90 knots. In my rocket I am fine at 80 knots but 70 knots is just not comfortable. Many many times I have encountered champs, 150s, etc flying at 60 to 70 knots. This just makes the system unsafe for the majority of the aircraft.
A better solution would be for more pilots to fly the higher, faster approach and safely lower down into gaps created by the slow pokes as you get closer to the airport.

I was out practicing at our local airport today, flying the Rocket, with a 172 in the circuit doing 80 knots. This was good practice and I had absolutely no issues but it did take a few circuits to get the kinks worked out. As many have mentioned being prepared for slow flight and landing in different locations on the runway are the key to a safe AirVenture.
 
Practice slow flight at the edge of a stall.

You will be amazed at how controllable these aircraft are when sitting at the edge of a stall. I did this for over an hour a few years back - nose high, one notch of flaps, 60 knots at 5500 feet. I could maintain altitude while the aircraft burbled right on the edge of stall for as long as I wanted. took lots of power, and had to manage minor cooling issues. I could increase back pressure to get a clean stall/break, and it would instantly recover by relieving the pressure.

If you haven't done this, it is an eye opener to what is possible in these aircraft on the slow end. It might not be comfortable, but then again, it might just save your life!

I am not advocating you fly the approach at 60 knots. I am advocating that everyone put every bit of capability into their trick bag that is available. Procedural changes may or may not help me when the fur-ball flies, so my fundamental rule is:

Do no harm. Period.

Don
 
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Oshkosh

One of my solutions to the OSH arrivals is
Over the railroad tracks at 1800? and 90 knots
means just that. A half or quarter mile
To the left or right is not over the tracts.
1800? means 1800, not 1600? or 2000?.
Most of us have GPS, and mark one eyeballs
So why do I look out and see someone a half
Mile to the left or right and 200? up or down?
I should be focusing on my twelve O?clock,
But anyway hope to see you guys there.
 
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