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Can someone lay it out for me? IFR Dynon

jcarne

Well Known Member
Patron
Hello, I have been reading for hours and right when I think I have IFR pannel planning figured out I get confused again.

Here is the situation: I started working on my IFR ticket back in the day and would like to finish it with my -7A when it's flying. I'm not looking to fly single engine into hard IFR minimums but I do think IFR makes a much better pilot and I would like to be able to get through simple high level overcasts. Plus, I remember during training that IFR flying was just that much cooler!

The bird is initially going VFR so I can get her into the air sooner and do all the phase one stuff and enjoy the plane which will all be VFR anyways. Howevever, I'm planning my panel and electrical right now and I want to design it so that all I have to do is drop in the components like Garmin GPS and another ADAHRS to be IFR capable.

Here is my setup so far:
-Dual Dynon HDX
-one ADAHRS
-Skyview GPS
-Skyview ADS-B
-2 axis Dynon autopilot with panel
-1 Dynon com
-2 place intercom

Here are my questions:

1. Is there a single GPS I can plan for that will give me all the capabilities I need? I'm assuming a GTN 650 or higher?

2. I'm assuming there is no way to make it through instrument training without ILS cababilities although I gather from a lot of people that they generaly fly different types of approaches once finished with their ticket, correct?

3. Am I correct in assuming I cannot simply ad one of Garmin's new GNC 355 or GPS 175 units because they do not support ILS approaches without adding something else like a GNC 255 nav/comm radio?

4. Assuming I get a GPS with nav/comm or some other device will the Dynon HDX be my LOC and glide-slope display during an ILS approach?

In a nutshell, I'm trying to figure out what I need to plan for so that I can fly IFR and get through an instrument check ride and training.

Thanks to whoever can lay it out for me!
 
My panel is set up currently just like yours is - with the addition of a Garmin 430W. You'll need a Dynon ARINC-429 module to take the guidance from any certified box (430W, 650 etc) and display that guidance on the Dynon HSI - from there you can hand-fly it or engage the autopilot to follow it. Any certified box that develops and supplies IFR guidance can be fed to the Dynon HSI via the ARINC - whether it's GPS, VOR, or ILS. The 430W can do all that, I don't know about the 650.

Once you have the certified box feeding the guidance to the Dynon, then yes your Dynon HSI is your primary display for guidance data. You'll still have to monitor your certified box for annunciations as required, but your actual flight guidance will be displayed on the HDX screen.

I took my IFR training in my 9A with my current panel setup, all Dynon plus a 430W and a Garmin G5 for attitude backup.
 
As the ACS (nee PTS) is currently written, a TSO 145/146 GPS is not sufficient for the check ride. However, some examiners have been willing to bend the rules, or maybe simulate an emergency VOR approach using a $400 handheld, etc. The gps (only) is sufficient for most IFR operations (as long as it doesn't fail!).

I would strongly recommend a second attitude source, with its own battery. At a bare minimum, a second AHRS box.
 
You?ve basically got it

See responses to your questions below.

1. Is there a single GPS I can plan for that will give me all the capabilities I need? I'm assuming a GTN 650 or higher? You don?t need that much radio. A non-WAAS GNS430 would be good enough. You just need to be able to do 2 different non-precision approaches and 1 precision approach. ILS would count for the precision and VOR and GPS would count for the non-precision. A more capable GPS would allow you to use an LPV as your precision approach, but you?d still need more than just a GPS to do 2 different non-precision approaches.

2. I'm assuming there is no way to make it through instrument training without ILS cababilities although I gather from a lot of people that they generaly fly different types of approaches once finished with their ticket, correct? You don?t need the ILS capability, but any NAV (stand-alone or in a GPS/NAV/COM) will have that capability.

3. Am I correct in assuming I cannot simply ad one of Garmin's new GNC 355 or GPS 175 units because they do not support ILS approaches without adding something else like a GNC 255 nav/comm radio? That is correct.

4. Assuming I get a GPS with nav/comm or some other device will the Dynon HDX be my LOC and glide-slope display during an ILS approach? I have a HDX and it displays vertical and horizontal guidance from my SL30 NAV and horizontal guidance from my GX50.

In a nutshell, I'm trying to figure out what I need to plan for so that I can fly IFR and get through an instrument check ride and training. . I would think the hardest bit might be to find an examiner willing to do the check ride in an experimental. I don?t believe they are required to even if it is appropriately equipped.

Thanks to whoever can lay it out for me!
 
I would think the hardest bit might be to find an examiner willing to do the check ride in an experimental.

Surprisingly, I found it really quite easy to find DPEs around me that would do the IFR checkride in an RV. I did mine in the family RV-6.

Maybe it various around the country. Real possibility.

v/r,dr
 
Surprisingly, I found it really quite easy to find DPEs around me that would do the IFR checkride in an RV. I did mine in the family RV-6.

Maybe it various around the country. Real possibility.

v/r,dr

Yep. Tanya and I both did our IFR checkrides in the RV, what seems like a long time ago.
 
WOW, great responses here guys. I even got a few PMs so that I can call. Thanks a bunch!


My panel is set up currently just like yours is - with the addition of a Garmin 430W. You'll need a Dynon ARINC-429 module to take the guidance from any certified box (430W, 650 etc) and display that guidance on the Dynon HSI - from there you can hand-fly it or engage the autopilot to follow it. Any certified box that develops and supplies IFR guidance can be fed to the Dynon HSI via the ARINC - whether it's GPS, VOR, or ILS. The 430W can do all that, I don't know about the 650.

Once you have the certified box feeding the guidance to the Dynon, then yes your Dynon HSI is your primary display for guidance data. You'll still have to monitor your certified box for annunciations as required, but your actual flight guidance will be displayed on the HDX screen.

I took my IFR training in my 9A with my current panel setup, all Dynon plus a 430W and a Garmin G5 for attitude backup.

Thanks for the input and the PM. I'll give you a call soon to discuss this.

As the ACS (nee PTS) is currently written, a TSO 145/146 GPS is not sufficient for the check ride. However, some examiners have been willing to bend the rules, or maybe simulate an emergency VOR approach using a $400 handheld, etc. The gps (only) is sufficient for most IFR operations (as long as it doesn't fail!).

I would strongly recommend a second attitude source, with its own battery. At a bare minimum, a second AHRS box.

Good points here Bob. I currently have a backup airspeed indicator which I will replace with either a Garmin G5 or Dynon D10 for backup.

See responses to your questions below.

Thanks Jason, that answered a lot of my questions.

Surprisingly, I found it really quite easy to find DPEs around me that would do the IFR checkride in an RV. I did mine in the family RV-6.

Maybe it various around the country. Real possibility.

v/r,dr

Good point DR. Luckily I have a high school student that just graduated and is going to flight training on a full ride. He will be my go to guy. :D I just hope I have shown him my project enough times for him to eventually buy a kit himself.

Yep. Tanya and I both did our IFR checkrides in the RV, what seems like a long time ago.

Thanks for the data point Scott.
 
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LPV approaches are not technically ?precision approaches?.
Neither are RNP Lnav/Vnav approaches gaining popularity in the airline word.
The lowest m?nima still come from ILS precision approaches.

From google.

LPV approaches are a WAAS/GPS based approach, and they're very similar to the ILS. But there is a difference. Even though LPV approaches have vertical guidance, they're not considered precision approaches. Instead, they're an approach with vertical guidance (APV).

So what's the difference? APV approaches don't meet the ICAO and FAA precision approach definitions, which apply mostly to localizer and glideslope transmitters. The precision approach definition also carries a lot of documentation, definition, and cost with it, so the FAA and ICAO adopted the APV definition, so they could build new approaches and not be burdened with the cost and paperwork
 
So what's the difference? APV approaches don't meet the ICAO and FAA precision approach definitions, which apply mostly to localizer and glideslope transmitters. The precision approach definition also carries a lot of documentation, definition, and cost with it, so the FAA and ICAO adopted the APV definition, so they could build new approaches and not be burdened with the cost and paperwork

Gee - sounds a lot like EAB!
 
The lowest m?nima still come from ILS precision approaches.
k

There are now a lot of LPV approaches with minimums of 200? and 1/2 mile visibility, the same as standard cat 1 ILS minima. Very few pilots jump thru the hoops to get cat II qualified, so in a practical sense, ILS and LPV approaches are essentially equal.
 
I'm also interested in this thread. If I recall correctly, the required ARINC-429 box uses up one of the Dynon EFIS serial ports. All 5 ports of mine are taken; GPS, VP-X, ELT, Transponder and ADS-B. So I think in my particular situation, If I wanted to add a backup ADAHRS, EFIS screen, second Attitude Indicator and NAV/COM/ILS I would need to probably ditch the VP-X box and go with fuses/breakers. This would require some additional trim/flap/wig-wag wiring.
Starting to get expensive just to have the IFR capability!
 
“ILS and LPV approaches are essentially equal”

Out in the real world I would agree, but the question all boils down to the PTS/ACS of the IFR rating. It says precision and by definition, the only current precision approach is ILS based.
From a practical standpoint of equipage, an LPV requires NAV and if you have NAV installed you normally have glideslope as well. Substituting VNAV for G/S is another feather in your quiver if G/S capability is lost either onboard or on ground, or if the particular approach doesn’t offer G/S capability, but I sincerely believe that the vast majority of DE’s are not going to accept an LPV as a fulfillment of the ACS. Again if you have a proper NAV box, you have G/S as well. The FAR’s are a bit vague and outdated concerning equipage, but the ACS is quite specific.
 
If you get a GNS430 or 650, then you can connect the ELT serial (assuming it's for GPS position) to that and free up one on the Dynon for the ARINC429 module .....

You might want to consider a second ADHARS if for no other reason than it will give you a warning that the 2 disagree and that something has therefore failed. G5 for backup?
 
No Nav

As I have mentioned before on this forum, I trained and took my IFR checkride in my RV. It has only a GTN 625. No Nav. The DPE said that the LPV approach down to to 200ft was good for him.

He was reasonable. Just need to find someone like him.
 
I'm also interested in this thread. If I recall correctly, the required ARINC-429 box uses up one of the Dynon EFIS serial ports. All 5 ports of mine are taken; GPS, VP-X, ELT, Transponder and ADS-B. So I think in my particular situation, If I wanted to add a backup ADAHRS, EFIS screen, second Attitude Indicator and NAV/COM/ILS I would need to probably ditch the VP-X box and go with fuses/breakers. This would require some additional trim/flap/wig-wag wiring.
Starting to get expensive just to have the IFR capability!
The ELT is a one way device so you may be able to "piggyback" the ARINC module on that same RS232 line. Contact DYNON support and they can verify based on your particular installation.

If you get a GNS430 or 650, then you can connect the ELT serial (assuming it's for GPS position) to that and free up one on the Dynon for the ARINC429 module .....
This is exactly how I have my installation.

:cool:
 
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As I have mentioned before on this forum, I trained and took my IFR checkride in my RV. It has only a GTN 625. No Nav. The DPE said that the LPV approach down to to 200ft was good for him.

He was reasonable. Just need to find someone like him.

Same here, my CFII took one look at my panel and said "Oh, this is going to be fun." The DPE I used was interested in my builders log and maintenance records, and took the glass panel in stride, commenting that it was just like the G1000 and shouldn't be a problem.

He did make me fail my left hand primary screen and shoot an ILS with right hand screen - so if you have dual screens you need to expect that. It's a little different trying to fly an approach looking across the cockpit at an angle to your flight path.
 
I'm also interested in this thread. If I recall correctly, the required ARINC-429 box uses up one of the Dynon EFIS serial ports. All 5 ports of mine are taken; GPS, VP-X, ELT, Transponder and ADS-B. So I think in my particular situation, If I wanted to add a backup ADAHRS, EFIS screen, second Attitude Indicator and NAV/COM/ILS I would need to probably ditch the VP-X box and go with fuses/breakers. This would require some additional trim/flap/wig-wag wiring.
Starting to get expensive just to have the IFR capability!

Bruce when you say serial port I'm assuming you are talking about the network connections? If so, and I'm not mistaken you can simply add another Dynon hub and that will give you plenty of additional network ports.
 
If you get a GNS430 or 650, then you can connect the ELT serial (assuming it's for GPS position) to that and free up one on the Dynon for the ARINC429 module .....

You might want to consider a second ADHARS if for no other reason than it will give you a warning that the 2 disagree and that something has therefore failed. G5 for backup?

Yes I will put a G5 in place of where my airspeed indicator is.

As I have mentioned before on this forum, I trained and took my IFR checkride in my RV. It has only a GTN 625. No Nav. The DPE said that the LPV approach down to to 200ft was good for him.

He was reasonable. Just need to find someone like him.

I think at this point I will plan for something that has NAV capabilities, leaning towards a 430 right now but I'm a bit torn on that one as I'm not sure how much longer Garmin will support it? Although that could be a misguided concern.
 
Dynon ARINC-429 input/output

I'm also interested in this thread. If I recall correctly, the required ARINC-429 box uses up one of the Dynon EFIS serial ports. All 5 ports of mine are taken; GPS, VP-X, ELT, Transponder and ADS-B. So I think in my particular situation, If I wanted to add a backup ADAHRS, EFIS screen, second Attitude Indicator and NAV/COM/ILS I would need to probably ditch the VP-X box and go with fuses/breakers. This would require some additional trim/flap/wig-wag wiring.
Starting to get expensive just to have the IFR capability!

Bruce,

The Dynon ARINC-429 box is connected to the SkyView serial bus, not any of the the RS-232 ports. Any of the Garmin GPS navigators will connect to the ARINC-429 box directly so it will be pretty easy to add a GPS navigator to your system. The ARINC-429 gets it power from the SkyView serial bus, so you will just need additional power for the GPS navigator. The second ADHARS is also connected to the SkyView Serial bus so no extra power input.

If you have any other questions just email at [email protected].

Brian
 
Bruce when you say serial port I'm assuming you are talking about the network connections? If so, and I'm not mistaken you can simply add another Dynon hub and that will give you plenty of additional network ports.

No, the Skyview system has dedicated serial ports (5 RX and 5 TX) in addition to the much more flexible Skyview network. Generally speaking, other Dynon products will use the SV network, while third-party devices will use serial. Exceptions to this (Dynon devices that use serial instead of SV network) are:

  • GPS receiver(s)
  • SV transponder
  • SV ADS-B receiver

The ARINC-429 box does not use a serial port on the display, it uses SV network, so the original concern that started this line of discussion is actually moot.
 
No, the Skyview system has dedicated serial ports (5 RX and 5 TX) in addition to the much more flexible Skyview network. Generally speaking, other Dynon products will use the SV network, while third-party devices will use serial. Exceptions to this (Dynon devices that use serial instead of SV network) are:

  • GPS receiver(s)
  • SV transponder
  • SV ADS-B receiver

The ARINC-429 box does not use a serial port on the display, it uses SV network, so the original concern that started this line of discussion is actually moot.

Thanks for the clarification Philip.
 
For those who used LPV for your precision approach for your IFR ticket ride, what were your two non-precision approaches to complete the three required?
 
?ILS and LPV approaches are essentially equal?

Out in the real world I would agree, but the question all boils down to the PTS/ACS of the IFR rating. It says precision and by definition, the only current precision approach is ILS based.
From a practical standpoint of equipage, an LPV requires NAV and if you have NAV installed you normally have glideslope as well. Substituting VNAV for G/S is another feather in your quiver if G/S capability is lost either onboard or on ground, or if the particular approach doesn?t offer G/S capability, but I sincerely believe that the vast majority of DE?s are not going to accept an LPV as a fulfillment of the ACS. Again if you have a proper NAV box, you have G/S as well. The FAR?s are a bit vague and outdated concerning equipage, but the ACS is quite specific.

You may be correct that the FAA-speak is a bit garbled. BUT, the forward of the ACS lists acceptable approaches, and, under the precision approach task, lists ?ILS or LPV, with a DA(H) below 300? agl?.
I also don?t understand the comment, ?.....LPV requires NAV...?. These days there are quite a few IFR flights with no NAV on board, and, truth be told, I generally use only gps guidance from start to finish.
I do agree with your question, ?What two different non-precision approaches do you demonstrate on the check ride if you have no VOR/LOC?? As I said, some DPE?s are willing to bend the rules.
 
A lot of people saying an ILS is the only precision approach... This would be incorrect. PARs are precision approaches as well. If you can find a place local to you that will do them.

Gray AAF here in the PNW will allow you to do them.
 
The ARINC-429 box does not use a serial port on the display, it uses SV network, so the original concern that started this line of discussion is actually moot.

That is Correct. It went right over my head that he was talking about an ARINC box which uses the DYNON SV network connection not a SkyView serial port.

:rolleyes:
 
That is Correct. It went right over my head that he was talking about an ARINC box which uses the DYNON SV network connection not a SkyView serial port.

:rolleyes:

Truth. Jereme - I mis-spoke when I was talking to you on the phone this afternoon, the Skyview ARINC-429 module does not need a pair of the serial ports to work. It lives on the 9-pin Skyview Network.
 
Truth. Jereme - I mis-spoke when I was talking to you on the phone this afternoon, the Skyview ARINC-429 module does not need a pair of the serial ports to work. It lives on the 9-pin Skyview Network.

Roger, understood. Thanks for the clarification. And a big thanks to taking the time on the phone the other day.
 
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