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OSH Arrival

mach25

Member
I tried to land at OSH on Thursday after the air show. This was a fiasco and I was unable to get in. First, the air show ran nearly 45 minutes late. Second, ATC refused to allow arrivals for 30 minutes to allow backed up departures off. Third, the C5 incident confused ATC and caused more delays. Finally, they closed the field for arrivals at the standard 8 PM despite all the delays in arrivals. Why? It is not dark until 9:30 PM. The delays were caused by ATC and the air show, not the pilots. It would be safer to allow the pilots risking their lives circling Rush Lake in close proximity to dozens of their friends to arrive at OSH instead of forcing them away to find another airport late in the evening. They may be low on fuel, they may be landing at an unfamiliar field at night, and FBOs may be closed. This really needs to be addressed in the future before someone gets hurt. I think the OSH arrival closure time needs to be flexible to reduce risk to arrivals. Your thoughts?
 
I arrived Thursday morning, hitting FISK right at 7:00am. Super easy arrival with no holding. But I also had the information out for Fon Du Lac as that was my planned alternate if something prevented me from getting into Osh, and I arrived at FISK with about three hours of fuel on board.

I think it's fine as is, really. The NOTAM is pretty clear that you should monitor your fuel situation and divert if neccesary. Further, someone landing at an unfamiliar airport at night does so by their choice - they could have chosen to divert earlier. I'd also say that if someone is circling Rush Lake and feels like they are risking their life doing so, they are doing so by their own choice and should probably divert immediately.
 
I tried to land at OSH on Thursday after the air show. This was a fiasco and I was unable to get in. First, the air show ran nearly 45 minutes late. Second, ATC refused to allow arrivals for 30 minutes to allow backed up departures off. Third, the C5 incident confused ATC and caused more delays. Finally, they closed the field for arrivals at the standard 8 PM despite all the delays in arrivals. Why? It is not dark until 9:30 PM. The delays were caused by ATC and the air show, not the pilots. It would be safer to allow the pilots risking their lives circling Rush Lake in close proximity to dozens of their friends to arrive at OSH instead of forcing them away to find another airport late in the evening. They may be low on fuel, they may be landing at an unfamiliar field at night, and FBOs may be closed. This really needs to be addressed in the future before someone gets hurt. I think the OSH arrival closure time needs to be flexible to reduce risk to arrivals. Your thoughts?

Totally agree, last year despite the arrival disaster, they shut down the airport at 7:30 leaving tons of folks scrambling to alternates.
Always easy for the folks on the ground to say "you should be a better pilot, not my problem".
 
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I arrived Friday and endured the storms for 2 days. Afterwards, when the skies were clear after 6 pm, I wondered the same thing. Why close the field when it was severe clear until dark, 9:00+, and planes were trying to get in??? Weather impacts everything and adjusting the closing time when the weather is great to get planes in should be considered.
 
I?ve worked in the past with the folks who were responsible for the NOTAM, and there?s lots of moving parts at Oshkosh. Lots. Your best bet for improving things is to contact EAA directly.

Problem solvers welcome! Whiners not so much.
 
As I posted on the EAA board. The EAA publishes a schedule and needs to live by that schedule. Both arriving and departing aircraft depend on that schedule for planning safe arrivals and departures. If the airshow needs to be truncated at 6:00, so be it.

I would be comfortable moving the field closure to 8:30, but no later, and would not make the timing of the field closure flexible because then you'd have people "planning" around an unpredictable schedule.

Make a plan. Follow the plan. This applies to pilots and the EAA.
 
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We arrived Wednesday late morning. No issues at all. What I found most disappointing was other pilots asking ATC the same questions about parking availability. The answer to each question was broadcast on the ATIS but still Pilot after pilot asked the same questions and of course received the same answers. The Same answers that they heard on the ATIS, if they were listening as per the NOTAM.
ATC was courteous and their instructions were clear. This was my first visit to OSH. I can?t speak for others but my arrival experience was awesome.
 
We need to keep in mind that all the people, who work our airplanes from and to the runways, are all volunteers. So when 8 pm arrives, they are off to the camp grounds to relax and enjoy the evening festivities with family and friends. So that is likely why 8 pm is a hard field closing time.






Frank Huber
RV-7A
 
I’ve worked in the past with the folks who were responsible for the NOTAM, and there’s lots of moving parts at Oshkosh.

I first flew the Fiske arrival in 1985 on Sunday in early evening and landed as expected in enough time to setup camp. The basic design hasn't really changed in those 34 years, but the traffic has grown. It's past time for a rethink. Since ground traffic can only approach the airport from one direction, it's almost like the designers of the procedure are stuck with the same mindset.

One thing that really struck me after flying out of OSH is that once you get 5 miles or so from the airport, you wouldn't know anything that big was taking place nearby. My point is that there is lot of airspace out there. Use it all instead of maybe only 10% of what's available.

+1 on the airshows need to end on time, especially when they start early. Since the airshow takes place along runway 18/36, would it really be that much of a safety issue if departures were allowed on runway 27 for straight out departures with a maximum altitude of 1000 AGL out to 5 miles during the airshow. Restrict taxiing operations only to the North 40 during the airshow. They run the facility as 2 separate airports all day long anyway. Why not continue the philosophy during the airshow?
 
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We need to keep in mind that all the people, who work our airplanes from and to the runways, are all volunteers.

The people may be true volunteers, but I came to learn that there is a quid pro quo if you put in 40 hours of time. In other words, they are getting something for their efforts. For their 40 hours of volunteering, they are getting a weekly wristband ($125 value) and camping (up to a week of camping at $39/day). That could be $300 to $400 plus food and drink as I saw Homebuilt HQ folks eating their provided lunch. So, are they really volunteering or just bartering their labor for something of value. I suspect EAA wants to keep the volunteering lingo so they can avoid paying any employment taxes.
 
I was the last airplane( on the NOTAM) to arrive on Friday before the event start. I reached Fiske at about 7:45 and was cleared to 18R. Two planes behind me had just arrived at RIPON and the controllers asked how quickly they could get in. Six minutes was their response. They were cleared to 27. The controllers were being flexible & understanding. BTW, there was a frontal storm approaching.

It's not only the runway/airport closing at 8:00, all airplanes must be parked & shut down. I suspect this hard 8:00 rule considers all the many volunteers throughout the grounds that need to shut it down & get everyone parked.
BTW, I shut my engine down exactly at 7:59.

What I'm saying is that if they extend the airport closing time due to air show delay, it impacts everyone on the ground as well.
 
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I'd also say that if someone is circling Rush Lake and feels like they are risking their life doing so, they are doing so by their own choice and should probably divert immediately.

By the same right, anyone who remains in the Rush Lake hold until their fuel state makes diverting somewhere else problematic should probably rethink their planning.

During the three attempts I made to get in last year, during the worst of the insanity, in each case I established what my "bingo" fuel state was going to be before I ever started the engine at Watertown, though I never got close to that number on any attempt because, for the first two failed attempts, I pretty quickly ran out of faith that things were going to get better if I just waited around for long enough.

With all that said, I do agree that allowing the air show to run significantly late, when the evening arrival window is already kind of small, isn't great. I do not, however, think that a flexible closing time is the solution, for the reasons already stated by others here.

Still, regardless of what may or may not change in the future, I would strongly recommend that everyone planning on flying into OSH have a Plan B in place, regardless of how quiet you might expect things to be.
 
The people may be true volunteers, but I came to learn that there is a quid pro quo if you put in 40 hours of time. In other words, they are getting something for their efforts. For their 40 hours of volunteering, they are getting a weekly wristband ($125 value) and camping (up to a week of camping at $39/day). That could be $300 to $400 plus food and drink as I saw Homebuilt HQ folks eating their provided lunch. So, are they really volunteering or just bartering their labor for something of value. I suspect EAA wants to keep the volunteering lingo so they can avoid paying any employment taxes.

So does that mean you're going to take a week of your yearly vacation and volunteer for one of these high paying jobs? I hope that there aren't many OSH volunteers reading your post or there will be fewer of them next year! Just say-in.
 
So, are they really volunteering or just bartering their labor for something of value. I suspect EAA wants to keep the volunteering lingo so they can avoid paying any employment taxes.

Paying for room and board and expenses is not considered compensation, just ask IRS as they tax everything as income but not my room and board and expenses when on business travel for my work.

And I am pretty sure after 8 hours of volunteering most of them are too tired to actually do much walking around and enjoying the show. I think the volunteers make the show possible/great and any perk they get is well deserved and nowhere near enough.

Disclaimer, I have never been a volunteer nor know anyone directly that is one but observe them working hard every place I look around OSH.
 
Let's not get into whether or not the volunteers receive anything in exchange for their time. After all we all know that this doesn't happen without them. I for one am grateful for all that they do and planning on volunteering myself in the future years, and trust me, it's not for the compensation so let's not go that down rat hole.
Back to EAA doing the right thing. I agree 100% that they should plan and stick to the plan as best as possible. If they want to close the airport at 8pm then put it on the NOTAM, set expectations and keep the schedule as posted.
I agree with the original post that lives are at stake here when they don't do what they outline on the NOTAM.

This is a purely a management/enforcement issue to allow the schedule for an airshow to go over and have rippling effect, nothing else. If EAA couldn't start the airshow on time due to weather or anything else, they need to stick to that schedule and stop exactly on time to ensure pilots who are circling in the air, waiting to land, are safe. Just comes down to poor management and someone needs to own it.
I'm sure I'll get hand slapped for being direct but it needs to be said.
 
I was the absolute last aircraft to land at SunNfun a couple years ago. He was telling others behind be that there is an agreement between the people that put on the event and the city controllers that there will be NO aircraft operations after "X" time and it's not flexible. I suspect there might be something like this as well at OSH.

With that said I do feel the airshow times should be shortened a little. ATC needs to stick to the timelines... as others have said for the purposes of planning by the thousands planning to fly in.
 
Quit whining

Improving OSH every year is a huge focus at Headquarters, I assure you. There are so many moving parts it is absolutely amazing. In spite of all of the weather problems this year, and mechanical problems (C5, etc.), there was an amazing job done by everyone. The attendance numbers speak for themselves.

Did everyone get to arrive on their planned time? Absolutely not. Could things be improved? you bet? Are we working on it? YES! Please keep in mind that the EAA doesn't own the airspace or the NOTAM. We are working very closely with the FAA to make improvements, and many improvements are going to be "feathered in" over the next few years. You just can't make too many changes at once. There's a bazillion moving parts, and lives at stake.


I was pleased that the air rage so evident last year was missing this year, so thanks to all of the pilots.

I would be very careful with regards to bashing the volunteers. Your facts are wrong on the compensation. Most of these people do it because they love aviation as much as pilots do. Not everyone flies, thankfully. WE need them. There are 5000+ volunteers. AirVenture would NEVER work without all of the volunteers, some of whom have been there for 50 years. The knowledge pool is absolutely amazing. You owe your ability to bring your airplane to Airventure to ALL of the volunteers. Period. So knock it off.

I was there Friday and Saturday when all of the volunteers basically went into emergency management mode after the 6-8" of rain. I think FEMA could have learned a few things from them. Some of them had skillsets we were lucky to have available, and they were some of the most humble people around. Working in the mud and slop and heat for some very long days. So basically, nobody wants to hear that you couldn't get in on your exact timed plan in your airplane. Ask some of those in the 4 mile long camper line who couldn't get into Scholler due to the mud, and ended up camping in Walmart parking lots. They made the best of it, setting up barbecues in the road and making new friends.

BTW, I spoke to quite a few pilots who landed at outlying airports, and they were very happy. Many just decided to stay there for the week and ride busses in every day. They made new friends as well, and were having fun.

Which is what Airventure is supposed to be about. Having fun. Try it. :)

Vic
 
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Over 600,000 attendees this year. One heck of a job for an organization with only 100 paid employees.
 
EAA was claiming similar or more attendees 15 to 20 years ago, but only they know what constitutes an attendee. For example, if a weeklong wristband is purchased, is that counted as one attendee or 7, i.e. once for every day purchased. How do they count how many people actually walk through the admission gates?
 
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EAA was claiming similar or more attendees 15 to 20 years ago, but only they know what constitutes an attendee. For example, if a weeklong wristband is purchased, is that counted as one attendee or 7, i.e. once for every day purchased. How do they count how many people actually walk through the admission gates?

Old discussion. Person days, so yes, a 7 day pass is seven "attendees".

Not that it matters. In terms of event planning and execution (the subject here), it matters not. The same person seven times or seven different persons is still 90,000 folks on the grounds each day, and in reality, some days are more. The population of the entire city of Oshkosh is about 66,000.

I think the staff and volunteers played an A-game. Well done!
 
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