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Thoughts on Panel Upgrade Ideas

Hi Everyone,

After owning my RV6A for about 1.5 years, I am finally starting to think about a panel upgrade (in conjunction with addressing ADS-B).

Right before buying my RV6A, I got my instrument rating. Therefore, for my panel upgrade, I would like to have it be IFR capable (in good weather for proficiency and maybe marine layers). I would also like the panel to qualify as TAA for my commercial rating (essentially PFD, MFD, dual axis autopilot).

I currently have a six-pack "steam" panel with KX-125 VOR/LOC, KLN 35A VFR GPS and KT76 Transponder.

I am going to replace the KLN35A and KT76 with a GNX375 (on order).

That leaves the rest of the panel to figure out what to do with. I am going back and forth between two paths (Dual G5, G3X). Cost difference is not a real big factor, so really I want to figure out what would be the best long term for usability (not go obsolete). (Switches and breakers and radio stack location are generally laid out according to current panel)

Dual G5:
Sch2ikl.png


G3X:
CTX5ds5.png


Any thoughts from the forum on these or modifications to these are appreciated.

Best,
James
N858SB
 
For your G5 option, I like the ipad right of the radios. No trouble reaching it there and I find that I like quicker easier access for the radios and GPS as use of those is more often required when workload is high or I am actively looking out the window.. The ipad is almost always touched in times of light workload. I have a full size ipad there, so have no issues seeing it on the right side.

Larry
 
My personal preference would be the G3X since it can display info from the GNX 375, and with the G5 as a backup if the G3X ADHRS fails the G5 becomes the G3X ADHRS as reversion.
Also, if with the included Garmin autopilot servos, if the G3X fails, the G5 can take over control of the autopilot functions allowing you to continue to use the autopilot.
 
Personally, if cost wasn't an issue, I would put the G3X touch on the left with an Ipad in the panel to the right. I have an older G3X portrait (GDU 370) with the Ipad to the right. Same size (height) so it is aesthetically pleasing on the eye. I have Garmin Pilot installed and my experience is that it is very nice for navigation, airspace, weather and you can even display ADS-B traffic on the ipad nowadays. I also loaded a tracking app on the Ipad which tells my wife precisely where I am. Even in South Africa cellphone signal was rarely an issue at FL095. Enjoy it! It's your panel, so get it the way you want it.
 
I just put a GNX375 and a G5 in my 6A.
Had I not already had another functional GPS/𝐜𝐨𝐦 and NAV/radios I would have done:


Ipad
G3x
G5
GNX375

Are you planning any analog stuff?

I put in a separate digital/analog tachometer which is nice
 
James, just curious about the rationale for the two small analog gauges for fuel pressure and oil pressure. Would the digital EMS not be adequate for these functions?
 
Everyone - Thank you for your thoughts and replies to this. It sounds like there is a benefit to having the G3X with the G5 for redundancy as well as general pilot preferences.

Another question came up with regard to the com radio. Someone I know is selling a GTR20 remote com. I had not thought about a remote com much before and was planning on a panel mount one (e.g., GTR200) for the buttons and redundancy if the G3X failed. Strong opinions one way or the other here?

Anthony - Thank you for posting a picture of your panel; it looks really nice! I might be adopting much of this for mine :)

PaulvS - The panel currently has the analog fuel and oil pressure gauges in those locations. They are plumbed with hard lines. It would be a nice look to have them deleted, but at the same time, I am not sure if it will make sense to remove them. Also, if I ever had a sensor probe for fuel or oil pressure fail, it would be nice to have the analog gauges to fall back on.
 
I have been pouring over the Garmin install manuals for the G3X, GNC375, and GNC255 trying to figure out how this all fits together to achieve the second option in my original post (G5, G3X, GNC255, GNC375).

Any thoughts on this high level diagram (am I forgetting any connections / hooking this up in the best way)?

NffCvjK.png


Thanks again, Everyone.
James
 
I have been pouring over the Garmin install manuals for the G3X, GNC375, and GNC255 trying to figure out how this all fits together to achieve the second option in my original post (G5, G3X, GNC255, GNC375).

Any thoughts on this high level diagram (am I forgetting any connections / hooking this up in the best way)?

Thanks again, Everyone.
James
Hello James,

Your diagram looks pretty good! Just a couple of comments on the GNX 375 installation.

1. The GNX 375 receives altitude data directly from the GSU 25 ADAHRS, so it is not necessary to install the GAE 12 altitude encoder on the back of the unit or connect the static line.
2. The bi-directional RS-232 connections from the GNX 375 to the PFD are MapMX and Connext as shown on page 27-35 of the Rev. AL G3X Installation Manual.
3. There is an EFIS/Airdata A429 connection from the GAD 29 to the GNX 375.
4. There is only the single GPS A429 connection from the GNX 375 to the GAD 29.
5. Any additional GDU 4XX displays in your system will have a Connext RS-232 connection to the GNX 375 so that they may receive ADS-B Traffic/Weather.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Hey James,

What you're doing and what I'm doing is somewhat similar. Are you doing the harness yourself or are you going to outsource it?


I have been pouring over the Garmin install manuals for the G3X, GNC375, and GNC255 trying to figure out how this all fits together to achieve the second option in my original post (G5, G3X, GNC255, GNC375).

Any thoughts on this high level diagram (am I forgetting any connections / hooking this up in the best way)?

NffCvjK.png


Thanks again, Everyone.
James
 
Steve / g3xpert,

Thank you so much for the quick and detailed response here! Very helpful! Updated diagram based on your feedback.

Regarding your point 1. Is there any benefit to using the GAE 12 in addition to the GSU 25?

aiw495o.png


Best,
James

Hello James,

Your diagram looks pretty good! Just a couple of comments on the GNX 375 installation.

1. The GNX 375 receives altitude data directly from the GSU 25 ADAHRS, so it is not necessary to install the GAE 12 altitude encoder on the back of the unit or connect the static line.
2. The bi-directional RS-232 connections from the GNX 375 to the PFD are MapMX and Connext as shown on page 27-35 of the Rev. AL G3X Installation Manual.
3. There is an EFIS/Airdata A429 connection from the GAD 29 to the GNX 375.
4. There is only the single GPS A429 connection from the GNX 375 to the GAD 29.
5. Any additional GDU 4XX displays in your system will have a Connext RS-232 connection to the GNX 375 so that they may receive ADS-B Traffic/Weather.

Thanks,
Steve
 
James,

The wiring harness I am somewhat confident that I could do well (I have an electrical engineering degree). I am more concerned about metal fabrication and finish for the new panel. The original builder did a great job and I want to make it look just as nice.

Hey James,

What you're doing and what I'm doing is somewhat similar. Are you doing the harness yourself or are you going to outsource it?
 
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Steve / g3xpert,

Thank you so much for the quick and detailed response here! Very helpful! Updated diagram based on your feedback.

Regarding your point 1. Is there any benefit to using the GAE 12 in addition to the GSU 25?

Best,
James
Hello James,

You are very welcome.

There are some places around the world that require that the transponder used in the ATC system be certified and use a certified pressure altitude source.

For those rare instances, the certified GAE 12 pressure sensor provides a means for those installations to be compliant.

Most of us vastly prefer that the GSU 25 ADAHRS that is providing data to the primary flight display also provide altitude data to the transponder.

Having a single air data source should also make it less expensive to complete the periodic transponder check.

Thanks,
Steve
 
g3xpert / Steve,

Some additional questions came up as I have been reading more of your other threads and the install manual.

Any benefit to:

  • GNX 375 / G5: Adding an additional MapMX connection from the GNX375 to the G5? I saw this post in another thread:

    “We recommend you connect the MapMX serial interface from the much higher capability GTN 625 to the G5 serial port input like shown on page 62 of the Rev. C G5 Installation manual. Note that this same GTN serial output is also connected to the PFD. With this installation, you could turn off both the GDU 460/470 displays and still fly an autopilot coupled LPV approach with the GTN 625 and G5, and of course fly an autopilot coupled flight plan entered on the GTN anywhere you like.” http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=148601
  • GNC 255 / GAD 29: Adding an ARINC connection to the GAD 29 from the GNC 255 (in addition to the RS-232 connection to PFD1)? (Would this put the VOR/ILS information on the CAN bus, since I have the GAD 29 for the GNX 375, should I use it with the GNC 255 also, or should I just use the RS-232 connection for the GNC 255?)

  • Thinking Ahead for PFD2 ... If I Wire a Connector for PFD 2, and then do not install the PFD, will everything continue to work without issues (e.g., CAN bus wont break without a node at the connector) but allow for me to add in a PFD2 at a later time?

To Everyone,
  • Regarding Lighting Bus. Do people doing an all Garmin panel find that using the photocells work well, or should I plan to wire up a lighting bus based on what people have experienced in the real world?
 
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Can someone drop a link to the GNX 375 installation manual please? I can't find it on the Garmin site.

Thanks!
 
Now that I know the big-ticket items, I am trying to figure out the best way to organize switches and breakers. This is what I have come up with. Apart from the general layout, some of the specific questions I still have are:

  • Should I put the GAD 29 on the Avionics bus, or the Main Bus? It is only needed for the Avionics (GNX 375 and GNC 255), but other examples placed it on the Main bus...
  • I have a breaker and a switch for the GAP 26 Pitot Heat. Any reason not to just use a Switch Breaker?

Thoughts and input appreciated...

G59CXvz.png


EYeQGh7.png
 
  • Should I put the GAD 29 on the Avionics bus, or the Main Bus? It is only needed for the Avionics (GNX 375 and GNC 255), but other examples placed it on the Main bus...
  • I have a breaker and a switch for the GAP 26 Pitot Heat. Any reason not to just use a Switch Breaker?

Thoughts and input appreciated...

Not Garmin related just by flight experience, is that TO/GO button the same thing as your GPS miss approach sequencer? I think it says that button and your Autopilot Disconnect button are both close together. During simulator training I remember we had a guy who in the heat of the training kept disconnecting the autopilot during a low IFR approach instead of cycling the GPS to do the miss approach sequence. Just a though in case your system works the same way.
 
Now that I know the big-ticket items, I am trying to figure out the best way to organize switches and breakers. This is what I have come up with. Apart from the general layout, some of the specific questions I still have are:

I think your G5 and G3X screens are mounted too far left. You should check the location of the platenut clips attached to the top fuselage skin and longeron for interference.
 
@Jim Frisbie: Thanks for the reminder about the CO Detector. I currently use the paper card type, but with your prompt I see that there are nice looking devices that integrate with the G3X. It seems like the GD-40 is liked by many. Do you have a favorite device?

Also, I am out of RS-232 ports on PFD-1. Am I able to hook it to an RS-232 input on a second GDU MFD and have the data available on the PFD?

rKGn3g8.png


u5iY5Dg.png


@Pilot135pd: Great point. Perhaps the TOGA above the throttle under the MFD--easy to press when going full throttle for go around.

For the AP Disconnect somewhere else ... I would love it on the stick, but I do not want to get a different grip and don't know if mine could be easily modified. Where else do people like to put AP Disconnect buttons?

@terrye: Thanks for this. Have nudged things around based on pictures of similar panels but will double check next time I am at plane.
 
James,
I would suggest you don't have any switches below the displays, put them all above. They are too easy to kick and/or catch your clothing on as you climb in/out. Mount everything as high up as possible.
Pete
 
Switches

Don’t agree at all with the switch’s above. Bellow is normal and works fine.
I would suggest putting the flap switch,(paddle switch) AP servo power, and AP activation/deactivation switch above the throttle within index finger reach while hand on the throttle. Maybe a dummy light for the fuel pump. I also have a light for low oil p., and alternator out. Group the lights together if you use them.
 
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Thinking through what happens with this LRU block diagram:

3ND86SZ.png


In the event that any single LRU fails:

MH126Qb.png


Not sure if this is 100% correct, but I hope to figure out the behavior on paper before finalizing this.

Posting for discussion.
 
James,
I would suggest you don't have any switches below the displays, put them all above. They are too easy to kick and/or catch your clothing on as you climb in/out. Mount everything as high up as possible.
Pete

I gotta agree with Pete on this one. Whenever I have flown an RV with switches below the displays I have had heck accidentally knocking them on or off inadvertently. My RV-3B is kind of that way and even after a few years of flying it I have to be careful.

Jim
 
Thoughts on "Thoughts"...

G3X over dual G5s--easy call, at least in my opinion. A couple of other thoughts...

How will you mount your iPad? Dimensions change with some regularity. You might want to consider a RAM ball mount. That also makes it easy to remove, and peraps importantly it allows you to adjust the viewing angle as you prefer. If you were to do that, you might want to consider shifting the Navigator, etc... a bit further to the right, so that the view of them isn't blocked--but not so far as to make them challenging to reach.

Want still more redundancy? Add a $200 stratux box and battery. In the admittedly unlikely event that everything else somehow went dark, you'd still have (with split screen) a pseudo PFD + GPS navigation + display of terrain, a chart (and Wx), traffic, an approach plate, or any number of other pieces of information that may be important at the time. In my -10, I have one secured on the bar behind the rear seats. No reception problems through the fiberglass. The battery sits between the front seats, secured by velcro, so that if necessary it can be swapped out for a fresh one. A USB/micro-USB cable connects the two, via the tunnel. That's a tremendous amount of redundancy for fractions of an AMU.
 
I always want my displays as high as possible therefore the switches have to go on the bottom.
 
Here is a pretty complete G3X system Layout.. (wired and operational)

Could be a basic start for any RV..

I only had room for one GDU...

But its easy to wire in a second... For whats its worth

Full wiring details as well.. (Hate to waste the effort on just one RV)

May take me a few try to get the links right..

Al

Basic layout


7ePH1lHQ0vOV-j9HUFZCCdHux9F20qvTc9QTacuNNBuddy7wt23CJn8CT3SQmn81HXEav7D0m7OJt9mhutRcc-BROEhN5WtxfPd_ouI_SjcCGmK22RQRT4spQXiCcu6JihIzgbToIymz84w2IargHaGdkGEUw6mL5eJy1H5UZ1P9nzNrvl4mcDvxsrblQvBAlLec2m9abRGKBJzI1Kj7nR3eLpbQaDap7pHBR6Tt4ZVJaA1TbKPuFgWgHa1mhKmJiZgdPZLCvu_5gdhb40wYM9D8Zqnz6oSLPYD0cRSv8oqM04t_TUQ24mWjjTtIrcOl-Ddvz_SWW9mpBt24Bdn_nIm2n8g2ETuDlPTYrXf6EqNxviaN6aU7PJMTxuvN-xyfDAzdu8ZxE2PiFCIZnl8WjY7r9FSUFT0a3XJF8IxKvpXEBqycs_XO_awAbrhDGNZAzMaXxsY4bMGJnBmQrS8CIq2PT7OB0WmeHQpE7NwPLrdDjFRzWQLdI3usprXT24zLfJZD4mYJVs98cfMqQgic0XRudrJ7WxQcM2qVeHHrPcupOTXfo1RtahrFeO0Cb4wr9TyQAad3LoDNLdUlf1RkkwysNxIviR4cYA6rRCMlWdmcDjW-s6BP_KFuAilvBNL6Z4H80yhDbpQOuo04g5gwcFpZ2-2HQW2hZg1R0FAfidYDnndXjzKstogL-15NAIfs119D94MXxOh61NnW2jCDJFqGWYdPMWHt-8YN2K0JFRA6g43eNDJeFyk=w1200-h800-no




Schematic


fqm5WEOnWndDn-nwasDgH29hUWOYdFnDir6VqDnEGNJswmf4n5V_pm25GHV_JXkESuV5sZKX2GIxLVYEALSGo6zmKqla_zqso3KZvCxNg_sK1mDDyr-hDm7AT_mlbLVxB0XWxXlCBVTmwIzY1PmVWQ49xZ_MSik9tQ9LRL8A4PaTvciMRQgcmqWqLrDRNtcAu0zL3f06XgTy5oqtvaar33XFvh5d4VunLRPSnr9U09kgJxYjFLp2qE7T17LNSjQRrbsnHFuJcUUkW7T9JameSGglIJzb1RNAZTx9dHs2SIhraQIcU4LUebFMT0i0GZte3PH_TXB8yvUGwpuyaVrb-NkIGB5eBlHyJaExleh5fodeoZ-YlGfH8I-LmnBo7GNEXWSgM5qI941M6Kk1i1yCU7S9x-WRrefG9Nq-v4qrpmnIB1SGokbwBkFK2qCimP2BRGtes4fAxdcBd1Kmw1VV9xIqw7QxMJaObAamxbLTJ1mVE-qXSRsB9aNqIY41pkFHXCGKh-OvjXXcwjNEpWssKsWwdN-HC7BMhtGkBpeG_xhUSIZcpyEy35A1bKnYJEi4Z8Vs2A_Dft0IuSO-OrF6MHqcs5z8fUNM-NhzEmIgEfYGs1cuJ5PjQFslF9fH-aH4k2RNu7l28LVeMi3PHkTxgAND09pYkaY5k6EWEIAoRNYeojdC9I_GO55Xjvvs-14d8jIrTkVBeCz1Mj9TZxY4gZY_jPRSlrTSFWO8pasjwOHl2eY82e7nF8Q=w1098-h839-no




Link to ExpressSCH file of schematic (feel free to use.. Should be 99% correct :> )

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdslzWld48h94krmUeabIQMutAUaLsHk/view?usp=sharing



Link to free design / wiring software: (Classic Version)

https://www.expresspcb.com





Result: (Ya.. Kind of a proud builder here.. Lots of effort.. Lots of time... Just wish I could fly without getting those pesky..... FAA notices of violation... :>)


9m3k8Hx6YHPUshb5Xbvug-OtZivXP8cglh4mBOR4ZzaxW6Eycm511XsGsE2Yc8hF5wRe7Bjh604BKVpzmRCBi6sJ9Lyuk-gGB7f42xxanyLHFJi0zP4wvG8hPSSf2q8jOZy-eAxa-uG0zobiS6Blk_OKwU6zUU6fu0SJhkFWUpDgSOfcZtzCsiVO8zihLXEdCkQjYP8dXqSyJ1JAXMIo-vx2zKB5o4yWiZd708K2X6R4lPxb6zwSSLyCjN_HDzEL3QRFEMDw0jMuhxfCFeg8WsmZbF_os0so9q8gu-lvJvtIkgBtCBJdwdFBDHnIFdxsnPU1ktFe5OQEDw6Te4rlomnh4Po_eREwNyxL2x0tHFKslY6aX0EbEFVxnUFB63m6Ilx7zX1E_3Qn4wMWJNNMaPBvYGqc3nyTmCERBOfAXevpTD-MAa1aJlBsBSMVZ8FH3Y0ElM1iIolP8mI52fhXXwjpQ-QXHu1Y-MjA_OXZYySw9ji89fFiezYBo-hzKEEEBYhLOES6hm1cStqzLzzJnyB5EtAhRoFiZo8EtCuVthzUCi7vTZrHmgo4GPyWx_g7xwgqq_2uRtmIJ2s7_17RCcuTeW94Naw2_W-j2jSpyTnuuiUPC2tX5pfNMvKjSyfQTlTA9LyX4BMRmm9NYn9C3YDh3GjMk8Bl_bxwbgrrPMnGi78KBgLEQGbgqn_45Y8azGhEP-0PlPFgeNI4uz5VWtR5qsLyq_PcNIqFyZmd6jLaygLIX191_RE=w1200-h800-no
 
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All Garmin

Thanks Al: Very timely for me. I’ll have a GTN 650, a second big screen with AHARS and 1 G5, but otherwise looks about the same. Would you be agreeable to a couple questions via email? Thanks.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
 
Rs232 to roll servo

I was wondering if the rs232 Needs to connected to the roll servo in addition to the canbus connection?
 
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I was wondering if the rs232 Needs to connected to the roll servo in addition to the canbus connection?

If you are using the GMC 305 or GMC 307 you must use the GSA 28 RS 232 (pins 7 & 8) as those two GMC 30X controllers only operate via RS 232. The GMC 507's main difference from the GMC 30X controllers is the addition of CAN Bus. So the G3X Touch installation manual specifies only the GMC 30X use the RS232 channels and strictly on the roll servo only. For the GMC 507 it specifies use the CAN Bus interface, and not the RS 232. To the pilot there are no control or feature differences between the CMC 307 and GMC 507, bu the 507 simplifies installation, especially when using a G5-centric system.

Jim
 
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Thanks

If you are using the GMC 305 or GMC 307 you must use the GSA 28 RS 232 (pins 7 & 8) as those two GMC 30X controllers only operate via RS 232. The GMC 507's main difference from the GMC 30X controllers is the addition of CAN Bus. So the G3X Touch installation manual specifies only the GMC 30X use the RS232 channels and strictly on the roll servo only. For the GMC 507 it specifies use the CAN Bus interface, and not the RS 232. To the pilot there are no control or feature differences between the CMC 307 and GMC 507, bu the 507 simplifies installation, especially when using a G5-centric system.

Jim

Thanks for that info. I just got done wiring up the pitch ap servo and was scared i missed something.
 
Here is a pretty complete G3X system Layout.. (wired and operational)

Could be a basic start for any RV..

I only had room for one GDU...

But its easy to wire in a second... For whats its worth (I agree with you here)

Full wiring details as well.. (Hate to waste the effort on just one RV)

May take me a few try to get the links right..

Al
----


Al, you showed a very creative way to use this software for laying out your diagram. And thanks for sharing your work. I have reached this point in my build and if you don't mind, I'd use your's as a basis to design mine.
 
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