Surfly

[Mike6A]

Is anybody using them? Looking at the new dual models that just came out certified. My mags are approaching their second overhaul so the price diff would not be that bad.
Thanks

 

[Stevea]

dual Surefly installation

Is anybody using them? Looking at the new dual models that just came out certified. My mags are approaching their second overhaul so the price diff would not be that bad.
Thanks

I'm kind of in the same boat as you....my mags have about 1 years worth of flying left in them before hitting the 500 hour IRAN mark.

I did talk to a rep at the Surefly booth at OSH last month, mostly to find out the electrical system requirements for running 2 Surefly SIMs vs 1. Picked up some info there, and once back home downloaded the installation manual. The installation manual spells it all out as far as the electrical system needed to run 2 Sureflys. It basically comes down to needing two independent power sources (a power source is considered a battery....NOT an alternator. Surefly's words....not mine.), one separate power source to each Surefly. Make sense when taking a non-electrically dependent ignition system (ie: two conventional mags) to an electrically dependent ignition system (two Surefly SIMs).

I just started looking at the Surefly docs, TCM backup battery docs, and my 'lectric Bob's Z11 electrical system layout to figure out what it would really take to switch from Slick mags to Surefly SIMs. It is not as easy as "toss the mags overboard and install two Sureflys." It is certainly possible to convert the ignition system....just needs to be done with some electrical system redundancy.

 

[planenutz]

Yep - what he said.

But they're a nice unit and the advantages and disadvantages have been well covered on this forum. Do some reseach and you'll find some good intel.

 

[jliltd]

Why not dual P-Mags? I have this set up on my RV-8. Not as massive as SureFly so there is more room around them on the accessory case and they are lighter.

I run a SureFly on my Aviat Husky. One side. If you want SureFly why not just add one and keep one conventional mag? You will get the majority of advantages electronic ignition provides without the extra expense and work of adding the second independent power source. When I put the SureFly on the Husky I had to install a step-down resistor in the tachometer lead for that side so the EI tach could read it. Also, there is a split-second hiccup when doing a run-up mag check with the SureFly because of the internal power switching. It takes a split second to turn on. It just takes some getting used to on the mag check. It is not an operational issue.

The SureFly requires a direct wiring to the battery with it's own fuse because it will need power even if the main electrical bus goes down. For safety reasons. This means there is a small parasitic load on the battery at all times even when the aircraft is parked. Kind of like a legacy electric panel clock. So a battery maintainer is not a bad idea. No such issue with P-Mag because P-Mag has an internal dynamo to create it's own electricity.

In both installations, one with dual P-Mags (RV-8) and one with a single SureFly (Husky), with Lycoming injected engines, hot start issues have become few and far between.

 

[Toddsanderson]

I would seriously consider dual P-Mags. They do not require a second power source and are dirt simple to time. I have only flown behind them for about 8 hours, but my plane has 600 hours on them with no known issues.

I'm half temped to remove my heavy 2nd alternator that fails often, ditch the 15 lb odyssey battery and go with an Earth X battery at 4 lbs. The alternator is another 7 lbs, so I shed 18 lbs. I already have an IBBS for the G3X touch system and my G5 has it's own dedicated battery as well. Right now I have overkill that does little to ensure a safe flight. The second alternator may keep me from getting stranded, but with good batteries and backups I am sure I could get home pretty easily - even with a failed primary alternator. I could even install a second Earth X battery. Between those two batteries and the IBBS I could easily go 4 hours with a failed alternator powering just the avionics.

 

[Dune]

Maintenance consideration

I was leaning toward the E-mag route but after reading a lot of the threads on the topic now I’m thinking I will choose the Surefly.

The dealbreaker on E-mags for me is the added maintenance time requiring removal every 100 hours or yearly to inspect the bearings.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

The dealbreaker on E-mags for me is the added maintenance time requiring removal every 100 hours or yearly to inspect the bearings.

I suggest a 15min inspection once a year is not all that hard. Now compare with the maintenance needed for a dual SureFly install (backup power system) and I’d bet that, if done correctly, this is at least as much time as the pMag inspection.

For what it worth, I ran dual pMags for 17 years before this annual inspection was recommended. Never a problem. I suspect as with most things a few outlier users drove this change. But - I still check each year as this is easy to make sure I’m not having a problem.

As the saying goes in the nuclear navy, “expect what you inspect”.

Carl

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Is anybody using them? Looking at the new dual models that just came out certified. My mags are approaching their second overhaul so the price diff would not be that bad.
Thanks

Overhaul the right mag and install the SureFly on the left side. You will eliminate the mechanical impulse coupling, have no need for a backup power system, have separate ignition redundancy and get nearly all the performance advantage of a dual SureFly installation.

That is the route I took on my RV-6 O-320.

 

[Avanza]

I have two Sure Fly SIM ignitions.
No inspections required, runs 2000+ hrs.
No software updates required.
Set it and forget it.
Yes two power surces is required.
A separate IBBS battery will work fine.

Good luck

 

[Dune]

Valid point. However not having ever installed a pmag, I doubt that I would be able to remove, inspect, time and reinstall the unit in less than one hour. Most likely the time would be shortened with repetition.

I’m planing on keeping one slick so the Surefly would only have direct battery power.

Your comments have now put me in a place of indecision again .

Cheers

I suggest a 15min inspection once a year is not all that hard. Now compare with the maintenance needed for a dual SureFly install (backup power system) and I’d bet that, if done correctly, this is at least as much time as the pMag inspection.

For what it worth, I ran dual pMags for 17 years before this annual inspection was recommended. Never a problem. I suspect as with most things a few outlier users drove this change. But - I still check each year as this is easy to make sure I’m not having a problem.

As the saying goes in the nuclear navy, “expect what you inspect”.

Carl

 

[Toddsanderson]

I'm pretty sure I could remove and re-install both Pmags in 30 minutes or so, especially at annual when the cowls are off.

 

[jliltd]

I just did my first Pmag gear inspection and was sure it was going to be a big PITA. I have stabbed a lot of conventional mags and figured Pmags would be as much or more work. I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly the Pmag inspection went. I put new paper gaskets on them at the same time. The most time was removing and installing the the clamp nuts. The inspection itself doesn't require removal of the harness or connector so the visual is quick. Timing is done after torquing down the clamps by moving the prop so the crankshaft is at TDC (any cylinder TDC!) followed by blowing in the manifold pressure tube. This is super easy.

I think the stabbing of my SureFly required indexing on the accessory gear teeth similar to a conventional mag.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Either way you should be happy in the end. Both brands are technically excellent.

If it were me I'd go dual Pmag over dual SureFly. PM has two decades of in-the-field experience and improvements. PMs are smaller and lighter. PMs don't have SF's physical dip switch settings under a dust cover that is next to impossible to access once installed. PMs do not require a full independent electrical backup system for second unit. PMs don't require a dedicated direct power wire from battery bypassing the main electrical bus resulting in a parasitic battery draw when parked. PMs can be indexed at any angle that provides clearance and easy maintenance access to the connector. This is further facilitated by the smaller size of the Pmag.

 

[Walt]

Overhaul the right mag and install the SureFly on the left side. You will eliminate the mechanical impulse coupling, have no need for a backup power system, have separate ignition redundancy and get nearly all the performance advantage of a dual SureFly installation.

That is the route I took on my RV-6 O-320.

I like this, it's what I would do too, in fact doing this combo on an RV10 today.
One thing I like is if it fails somewhere in the field you just pull it off and slap a mag back on, same ign harness that’s used on slick.

 

[Trooper11040]

Just completed the install of a dual surefly setup. With two it took about 15-20 hours for me to install everything with already having done 1 last summer. There’s a bit of wiring involved for the tachometer signal plus backup battery. The plane started very smooth and ran very well over the last 3 hours I ran it. So far I’m happy with it. I’m also planning auto plugs which are in the hangar ready to be installed but need to rewire the harness.

 

[FlyFastJP]

I've had mags. I've done dual P-mags. Had issues with both.

I now fly with the dual SDS CPI-2 with battery backup. In two+ years, not one single hiccup. No moving parts. Timing cannot get off. $2.00 spark plugs.

I'll never fly another ignition system.

 

[Walt]

I've had mags. I've done dual P-mags. Had issues with both.

I now fly with the dual SDS CPI-2 with battery backup. In two+ years, not one single hiccup. No moving parts. Timing cannot get off. $2.00 spark plugs.

I'll never fly another ignition system.

I think the SDS is a good system, but…. Millions of hours on mags have proven their reliability, however, they do require a bit of maintenance now and then which many folks tend to ignore.
So comparing a few folks good experience with SDS vs the entire GA fleet which is magneto powered, is not really apples to apples.

 

[bradfp]

Retire harness

Just completed the install of a dual surefly setup. With two it took about 15-20 hours for me to install everything with already having done 1 last summer. There’s a bit of wiring involved for the tachometer signal plus backup battery. The plane started very smooth and ran very well over the last 3 hours I ran it. So far I’m happy with it. I’m also planning auto plugs which are in the hangar ready to be installed but need to rewire the harness.

I’m curious as to how you plan to rewire your SureFly harness to use auto plugs? I would like to do the same.

 

[FlyFastJP]

Very true. Mags have been around since the dinosaurs. No comparison number-wise, and I'm not knocking them or Surefly style. SDS has been in aviation since the '90's. More than a few good folks run it. Closing in on a million aviation hours. Again, no moving parts at all to wear out. Zero maintenance. Free to program timing however you like...or not. LOP button. Long list of good things that newer tech brings.

 

[RV6_flyer]

I’m curious as to how you plan to rewire your SureFly harness to use auto plugs? I would like to do the same.

Can be done with a magneto harness auto plug conversion kit.