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school me on this Rocket plane, please!

B

Blw2

Well Known Member
so I became more curious about this F1 Rocket I read about from time to time, so I googled it. Found out there's an F1 and an F4 model....
but honestly, the website is a bit of a mess. Thought folks here might be able to give the cliff's notes version

It sure looks like a hotrod!
So I gather that this is a Frankenstein of sorts...RV wings. Some other fuse and tail maybe?
Speed advantage?
or is it more about looks?
are folks ordering wing kits from Van's and other parts or maybe kits from F1aircraft.com?
and the F4 I see is a smaller engined version...what does it compare to vs the F1?
 
Cliff notes version;

Way back in pre-history, there was a gentleman named John Harmon. He wanted to make the RV3/RV4 faster, and more fun. Rocket 1 and Rocket 2.

Harmon reduced the wing span, but kept the same number of ribs just spaced closer to make a stiffer wing. Bigger fuel tanks. Stretched the fuse. And---------installed a IO540 engine. You started with a RV 4 kit, and then bought parts from Harmon needed to create the Rocket.

Over the years folks made mods to the design and eventually had a kit made over on the other side of the world, and that became the F1 Rocket. Still uses a Lyc 540, or sometimes a Cont 550. There was eventually a tapered wing option.

Now, some folks are installing hot rod 4 cyl engines in the basic Rocket, and IIRC that is now the F4.

https://www.harmonrocket.com/

 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the conversations that I've had about this:

The Harmon Rocket still uses RV-4 parts, while the F1 Rocket is a self-contained kit. The F1 Rocket has a tapered and twisted "Evo" wing option.

Technically, the RV-4 based one is called the "Harmon Rocket II" (the original Harmon Rocket being the RV-3 based one).

Most "Rockets" in the western US/Canada are Harmon Rockets (II), while in the east there's a greater concentration of F1 Rockets.

And don't confuse them with the Radial Rocket ;) (which is composite).
 
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Many F1 Rockets use a modified RV4 wing. It’s reduced in span, but uses the same number of ribs. The result is a slightly stronger wing and increased wing loading due to the smaller wing lifting area. The additional weight from a bigger engine also increases the wing loading.

The F1/F4 folks came up with a beefier tail that most new builds will use. The earlier builds used tails mostly from RV4 or RV8’s, sometimes with heavier skins for strength. I think the fuselage is fairly uniform among the different iterations. It starts wide enough for an IO-540 engine mount at the front and then tapers to an RV4-sized bulkhead at the passenger seat back.

The Team Rocket folks (Vince Frazier) are working on tapered wings, but I don’t think they’re quite ready to be sold to the general public. As you noted, the information is a bit scattered between the two websites and some tribal knowledge shared on this site. Some of this stems from a history of a lack of unbridled acceptance of the concept from Van and Van’s Aircraft. They have [had?] concerns that folks were screwing with their design. Last I knew we were kinda in a “don’t ask, don’t tell” status. Some of the scattered nature of the information is because this is very much a grass roots endeavor. The various suppliers don‘t have a web design department or a market department or even a dedicated Office person to answer the phones!

I’d say the level of support, organization, and presentation of the Rocket concept is a good barometer of what you can expect from the build itself. It’s all there, but you might have to look for it and try a little harder than what we’ve all become accustomed to with the slick websites from Van’s or Amazon Prime.

As for me, my untouched Mark III tail kit and my untouched RV-4 wing kit remain untouched sitting in my hangar for when life finally slows down enough for me to start building again! I always said it was going to be a retirement project while secretly hoping it’d be done much sooner. probably not going to happen. In the meantime, I’ll probably continue to accumulate additional pieces and maybe even an engine if something pops up.
 
Why not ask the expert? Wait, that's ME!

You might start here....


Yes, our website is a bit of a mess... intentionally. That's because we've been putting our time into building the new shop, validating new equipment, and taking the brunt of our production "in-house". The first truly new, "in-house" parts began to go on the shelves this week. Why "in-house"? Well, because of Covid, and other issues, some of our previous vendors just weren't able to get the parts we needed.

Some of that makes it sound like we're having problems. NO. NOT AT ALL! We're avoiding problems! We're in GOOD financial shape, and we're NOT having any known quality issues. Yes, I'll say it.... we're in a GOOD PLACE and we're NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

So, if you're interested in an F1 or an F4, please contact me directly. We expect to have new airframe parts ready soon, and a new wing is on the way.

Here's a couple photos from AIrventure 2023 of what you can build from our parts....



IMG_20230730_111826769_HDR.jpg
Darryl and Milanka Hudec's Grand Champion Gold Lindy kit built, Oshkosh 2023


N550B cropped.JPG

Bob Baker's Bronze Lindy kit built - Oshkosh 2023

Minya and Darryl Hudec, Bob Baker, Vince Frazier.jpg

Milanka "Minya" Hudecc, Darryl Hudec, Bob Baker, and Vince Frazier at the Airventure awards ceremony, 2023.
 
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Vince, they are gorgeous creations. I've gotten to see F1s a couple of times come through KEIK and it's breathtaking to witness the performance. Got really lucky one day and saw an F1 out at the same time as a GB1 Gamebird.
 
Another teaser here.

Travis Lattin started this project, using our parts of course, just over 2 years ago. He expects to be flying in March.

Nice!!!

IMG_6234.jpg
 
They are beautiful aircraft for sure....
and sorry Vince, I meant no offense. I was looking I guess for a high-level marketing brochure like a summary sort of thing but didn't find one poking around on the site.
....was just trying to understand, executive summary level type stuff.... such as
  • Is it all about looks?
  • how much performance advantage if any is there over an as designed RV?
  • Are they hotrods that are harder to fly?
  • Is it mostly just some bolt on fairing type stuff added onto an RV to make it a fastbook look? (but I gather by the earlier comments about them using shortened wings that it's a bit more than that)
  • and I suppose also logistical things such as are they the sort of things that builders buy all parts and kits through you, and get just what they need
  • or buy a complete set of kits from vans, then buy extra parts from you to cobble the two designed together and having leftover parts in the end?
  • or is it just a plans concept that folks use to modify the Van's kits themselves?
  • etc....
 
Blw2 said:
They are beautiful aircraft for sure....
and sorry Vince, I meant no offense. I was looking I guess for a high-level marketing brochure like a summary sort of thing but didn't find one poking around on the site.
....was just trying to understand, executive summary level type stuff.... such as
  • Is it all about looks?
  • how much performance advantage if any is there over an as designed RV?
  • Are they hotrods that are harder to fly?
  • Is it mostly just some bolt on fairing type stuff added onto an RV to make it a fastbook look? (but I gather by the earlier comments about them using shortened wings that it's a bit more than that)
  • and I suppose also logistical things such as are they the sort of things that builders buy all parts and kits through you, and get just what they need
  • or buy a complete set of kits from vans, then buy extra parts from you to cobble the two designed together and having leftover parts in the end?
  • or is it just a plans concept that folks use to modify the Van's kits themselves?
  • etc....
Click to expand...
The F1/F4 has a more comfortable cockpit the an RV8. Of course if you go with the 540 you have considerable more performance and around a 200kt cruise speed.
Here is my F4
 

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Blw2 said:
They are beautiful aircraft for sure....
and sorry Vince, I meant no offense. I was looking I guess for a high-level marketing brochure like a summary sort of thing but didn't find one poking around on the site.
....was just trying to understand, executive summary level type stuff.... such as
  • Is it all about looks?
Click to expand...
No, It lives up to it’s name.


Blw2 said:
  • how much performance advantage if any is there over an as designed RV?
Click to expand...
a great deal. I flew an RV 8 before I bought my Rocket. I cruise about 202 kts on 11.8/hr. I can slow down to TV speeds and burn less than they do.
Blw2 said:
  • Are they hotrods that are harder to fly?
Click to expand...

No, my F1 is very well behaved. The Harmons have a higher tendancy to wind up on the nose due to the gear and a few other issues But it’s not bad.
Blw2 said:
  • Is it mostly just some bolt on fairing type stuff added onto an RV to make it a fastbook look? (but I gather by the earlier comments about them using shortened wings that it's a bit more than that
Click to expand...

no, it’s much more.
Blw2 said:
  • and I suppose also logistical things such as are they the sort of things that builders buy all parts and kits through you, and get just what they need
  • or buy a complete set of kits from vans, then buy extra parts from you to cobble the two designed together and having leftover parts in the end?
  • or is it just a plans concept that folks use to modify the Van's kits themselves?
  • etc....
Click to expand...

the F1 rocket is stand alone. The Wing is a shortened RV4 wing….for now. There was an Evo wing as well which is no longer available.
 
The easiest way to sum up the Rocket compared to an RV is “more”. The Rocket retains the same benign handling of any RV, but has a substantially higher cruise speed and climb rate, and the cockpit is bigger/roomier. The takeoff and climb performance is so astounding that the Rocket pilot does not even need to worry about DA, runway length, gross weight or surrounding terrain. If you find yourself in a situation where a Rocket can’t drag you out of there, it’s because you crashed into a forest clearing or are sitting at the bottom of a lake. If there is enough room to land without damage, you can DEFINITELY get back out.

Yet it plays well with RV’s, because throttle back to RV speeds it will deliver the same speed/FF numbers as your RV buddies see. I flew mine last night at 1/3 throttle, 166 KTAS, and 8 GPH - slightly better than the typical performance of my RV-8 (165/8.5). But if you find yourself free of your slower RV buddies, you can push the cruise speed up to 200+ and can expect a bit over 10GPH to do it. Do the math, and that’s pretty much the same MPG as the RV guys, yet it’s 35 knots faster.
 
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To echo all the above the Rocket in F1 form is a very nice handling airframe. There is also a new engine mount for the Harmon that fixes the gear geometry issues. The clipped wing provides a crisper aileron response and you can put a wing further down into the wind for crosswinds. Ride at pattern speeds and handling in gusts is improved. The down side obviously is a slight increase in stall speed. My Rocket handles better than my RV6 in almost every way. You also can’t beat the roominess of the front cockpit and the rudder pedal layout. The rear cockpit however is about the same as the RV8.
Biggest downside to the Rocket is insurance. F1’s and Harmon’s are lumped together so the F1 pays the nose over penalties from the Harmon. Perhaps as more people retrofit Harmon’s with the new gear it will get better but so far no one i know wants to spend the money.
 
I appreciate everyone chiming in with the good info. Going back to the OPs comments regarding the website, I'll add a few more comments:
  • Our website gets next to to no updates at this time. It'll get updated someday. Until then, current info is in our newsletters.
  • We'd rather put our time into setting up the new machines to produce parts. Oooooohhhh... We now have CNC press brakes, a huge CNC router, heat treat oven, and 4 post press.... nice!! But those things don't set themselves up! OTOH, we made our first new customer-ready parts last week. Now, that's the first of hundreds to make a kit, but it's happening!
  • Our website sucks. There I said it. And we intentionally don't have a web store. We did have a web store, but things were problematic. First, it required a LOT of time to keep current. Second, we had a real problem with people ordering things that weren't appropriate for their aircraft, then sending them back (after we'd told them that it wouldn't work. Sigh.)
So, it's simply faster, easier, and more accurate for me to send a quote when someone needs something. And I've learned to say "No" to certain types who want to buy things that won't work!

If you want to know something about us, or need a quote... just send an email. Not a PM. Not a text. Just an ordinary email please. [email protected] I always try to answer the phone too, but an email is the best. Thanks.

One last thing, the F1 and F4 gear geometry is different than the HR2. The wheels are about 2" forward of where they are on the HR2. This all but eliminates the chance of nosing over.

We've had quite a few HR2 owners swap to our HR2 specific engine mount. Sadly, most are doing it while their engine is being torn down due to a prop strike. Ugh. Our HR2 engine mount and gear legs aren't a cheap fix, but it's cheaper than an engine overhaul and a new prop!!!
 
Retooferab said:
The F1/F4 has a more comfortable cockpit the an RV8. Of course if you go with the 540 you have considerable more performance and around a 200kt cruise speed.
Here is my F4
Click to expand...
How does the front/rear luggage space compare to the -8? Is it similar to the RV8 or more like the RV4?
 
Northernliving said:
How does the front/rear luggage space compare to the -8? Is it similar to the RV8 or more like the RV4?
Click to expand...
Having just finished up clecoing the rear baggage compartment togetehr, it is cavernous compared to the RV-8….it extends way back an additional bulkhead. No, you still can;t carry much of a bicycle, but camping gear (shove the lighter stuff far back) is goign to be a piece of cake.
 
Love the look of HRll . I wish the RV8 had RV style gear. I have No interest in 6 cylinders . When Larry changed his HR to a 4 cylinder engine, he made the perfect sport plane. I should have bought it.
Greg ,, I’m envious,,
 
Retooferab said:
There is no front baggage. The rear baggage is plentiful.
Click to expand...
The flexibility of the -8 is a huge selling point if you are intending to max out to gross weight often. And even without that need, it’s still a great feature. That said, I also have the extended rear baggage compartment in my Rocket and though you have to be careful about the heavy stuff in the very aft, it does offer flexibility. I also eliminated the floor and sides of my rear compartment (primarily for weight saving), but did find that bigger bags would now fit with the few extra inches. Finally, if you are creative in your systems installation, the area between the fuel valve and firewall makes a good little storage area, Mine is for my tool bag or O2 bottle. When used for something heavy and dense, the front compartment adds some flexibility to keep the CG in line when the aft is packed out.

With my fife on board and full fuel (42 in my case), I can get another 100 pounds of baggage/stuff. No, I’m not going to transport a dead elk out of Alaska, but 100 pounds will sure get me and my wife through a long weekend out of town.
 
Ironflight said:
Having just finished up clecoing the rear baggage compartment togetehr, it is cavernous compared to the RV-8….it extends way back an additional bulkhead. No, you still can;t carry much of a bicycle, but camping gear (shove the lighter stuff far back) is goign to be a piece of cake.
Click to expand...
Before you drive any rivets, let me send you a picture of mine and see if you want to duplicate. It’s even “bigger” with the elimination of the sides and floor.

IMG_20230412_193646498.jpg
 
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Jaypratt said:
Love the look of HRll . I wish the RV8 had RV style gear. I have No interest in 6 cylinders . When Larry changed his HR to a 4 cylinder engine, he made the perfect sport plane. I should have bought it.
Greg ,, I’m envious,,
Click to expand...
Jay,

We can get you in line for an F4 kit. Everyone's happy then!!
 
so the F4 Raider is a modified RV8, am I correct about that? Is there a spec and performance summary document anywhere easy to see...comparing it to a "stock" RV8?

I found this page with a spec chart, but comparing that to Van's RV-8 performance and spec tables on their website it seems just about the same...even a few mph slower. what am I missing?
 
Mike S said:
No.
Click to expand...
ah, re-reading....post #3
The F1 is either an RV3 (harmon) or a stand-alone kit (not an RV at all) then depending on which version/supplier...
so is that true for the F4 raider too. Not an RV at all, but a stand alone kit by Vince?

I'm feeling slow on the uptake here... I thought it was still a modification of a Van's aircraft design and kit.
 
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Blw2 said:
so the F4 Raider is a modified RV8, am I correct about that? Is there a spec and performance summary document anywhere easy to see...comparing it to a "stock" RV8?

I found this page with a spec chart, but comparing that to Van's RV-8 performance and spec tables on their website it seems just about the same...even a few mph slower. what am I missing?
Click to expand...
This is no RV8 cockpit.
 

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Blw2 said:
so the F4 Raider is a modified RV8, am I correct about that? Is there a spec and performance summary document anywhere easy to see...comparing it to a "stock" RV8?

I found this page with a spec chart, but comparing that to Van's RV-8 performance and spec tables on their website it seems just about the same...even a few mph slower. what am I missing?
Click to expand...
No. It was NEVER based on the RV-8 or anything from an RV-8.

If the spec comparison makes an F4 appear a bit slower:
1) I prefer to under promise and over deliver. We have several flying and the builders claim the same or better speeds, but I'll err on the conservative side.
2) Any aircraft is subject to temperature, altitude, pilot technique, and other magic. Be suspicious of any speed claim on any airplane.
3) build one and find out! :)
 
Here's a timeline that might help answer some questions:
  • John Harmon build the first HR by modifying an RV-3. This was the HR1
  • He then built an HR2 by modifying an RV-4
  • Mark Frederick built several HR2s then wanted to produce a stand-alone kit with no RV parts included. John declined to participate. Mark contracted with the Czechs to produce the original F1 QB kits, about 175 of them, in the early 2000's. No RV parts were used in those kits. Production of those kits stopped sometime around 2007 or so. (Not sure of the exact date.)
  • My Rocket, N540VF, was damaged slightly in a tornado in 2011. For various reasons, I repaired it and sold it. I almost cried. I had about 350 hours in it and it was (still is) an awesome machine.
  • I briefly owned an RV-6 project. It would have been a great plane, but I wanted another Rocket, so:
    1) In 2016 I took over daily ops and production responsibility for the F1 Rocket from Mark, though Mark still makes various engine mounts and a few other items.
    2) I wanted everything to be made in the U.S. and chose not to revisit the Czech connection. This meant getting parts scanned, CAD created, and a LOT of start up snafus to wade through. Various vendors did a smashing job of making parts for us.
    3) We don't make QB kits. We did not resurrect the Evo wing, but are working on a replacement tapered wing design.
  • In 2018, Ray Ward flew the first F4 Raider produced from brand new Team Rocket (post-2016) parts. Robert Thurmond followed a few months later with a new F1 Rocket.
  • from 2020 through 2023, Team Rocket's Indiana operations were sidelined by covid, various supply chain problems, and the fact that we were foolish enough to build a new house and shop 200 miles from our former location.
  • By 2023 there were currently several new aircraft flying, including Darry Hudec's F1- 2023 Airventure gold Lindy winner, Bob Baker's F1 - Airventure 2023 Bronze Lindy winner, Randy Price's outrageously nice F1, and several others are very close to flying. All of these were "new production" parts, not legacy QB kits left over from Mark's earlier production.
  • In early January 2024 we made our first customer-ready new parts in-house, a monumental step forward! We now have some very nice in-house machining, forming, welding, and bending capabilities. And we are with the addition of Scott Burge and Toby Konnersman, we truly have a "team" here now.
Note: There are no RV-8s in this lineage. That "fake news" just won't die and I can't imagine how it got started. 'nuf said.

In the reasonably near future, we expect to have tail kits and other airframe parts available again. We currently have all of the non- formed aluminum parts ready to go... such as engine mounts, gear legs, weldments, canopy kits, all of the fiberglass and so forth. Soon we expect to have the tapered wing to a point where we can start to see a light at the end of that tunnel,

Life is good. Stay tuned.
 
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Vince, I’m cutting, pasting, saving - and printing that history to put on the shop wall…thanks!
 
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Sometime around 2012, Larry Vetterman removed the big engine from his Rocket and installed a four banger.

First example of this setup that I am aware of, but there may very well be others.

Pretty sure Larry had a HR, not F1-----so calling it a F4 would not be correct.
 
Mike S said:
Sometime around 2012, Larry Vetterman removed the big engine from his Rocket and installed a four banger.

First example of this setup that I am aware of, but there may very well be others.

Pretty sure Larry had a HR, not F1-----so calling it a F4 would not be correct.
Click to expand...
Including Larry's HR2 conversion, there are currently at least 3 flying "Raiders". I say "at least" because not everyone tells me when they are done and flying.
 
Blw2 said:
Vince, I'll look for ya'll at Sun n Fun. What do you plan on being there with?
Click to expand...
Sorry, Sun and Fun is indeed sun and fun, but it doesn't make any sense from a vendor POV. It's just as expensive and time consuming as Oshkosh but the crowds are far, far smaller.

So, since Airventure is already more than expensive enough and time consuming enough, we'll be there in space 645 like always, but we won't be at SnF. Sorry.

We don't know what we'll have on display at Osh this year, but I hope it's a lot of new stuff. Fingers crossed, not promising anything yet.....
 
bummer.
Yeah, I can understand that perspective...it has been growing a lot for sure over the last several years but it is still a smaller event.
Being a Florida resident and currently not actively flying it's easy for me to get to Sun n Fun so I go a lot. Airventure not so easy.
I'm daydreaming about retirement maybe in just a few years, and starting to think hard about a project to take on... so I've been thinking about looking a lot more seriously at options this year than I ever did before.
 
Blw2 said:
bummer.
Yeah, I can understand that perspective...it has been growing a lot for sure over the last several years but it is still a smaller event.
Being a Florida resident and currently not actively flying it's easy for me to get to Sun n Fun so I go a lot. Airventure not so easy.
I'm daydreaming about retirement maybe in just a few years, and starting to think hard about a project to take on... so I've been thinking about looking a lot more seriously at options this year than I ever did before.
Click to expand...
Do an F4. You won’t be disappointed!!!
That being said, I bought mine and have enjoyed flying it for the last couple of months!
 
Blw2 said:
bummer.
Yeah, I can understand that perspective...it has been growing a lot for sure over the last several years but it is still a smaller event.
Being a Florida resident and currently not actively flying it's easy for me to get to Sun n Fun so I go a lot. Airventure not so easy.
I'm daydreaming about retirement maybe in just a few years, and starting to think hard about a project to take on... so I've been thinking about looking a lot more seriously at options this year than I ever did before.
Click to expand...
Where in Florida are you located. You’re welcome to come by KMLB and check out a Rocket in person.
 
Danny, Thanks for the offer. I don't get down that way much. I'm between St Aug and Jax. I'm not really sure about the whole thing. I've got some reading and research yet to do on them...and I'm sure I'll catch up with one soon enough. Figured I'd keep my eye open at sun n fun even still...bound to be one there someplace.
 
Blw2 said:
Danny, Thanks for the offer. I don't get down that way much. I'm between St Aug and Jax. I'm not really sure about the whole thing. I've got some reading and research yet to do on them...and I'm sure I'll catch up with one soon enough. Figured I'd keep my eye open at sun n fun even still...bound to be one there someplace.
Click to expand...
Go see Danny's airplane. It's not far. A straight shot down 95.

If that doesn't sink the hook into you, you're not ready.
 
Blw2 said:
Danny, Thanks for the offer. I don't get down that way much. I'm between St Aug and Jax. I'm not really sure about the whole thing. I've got some reading and research yet to do on them...and I'm sure I'll catch up with one soon enough. Figured I'd keep my eye open at sun n fun even still...bound to be one there someplace.
Click to expand...
If I get to Sun N Fun I’ll post on here and you see mine.
 
Blw2 said:
Danny, Thanks for the offer. I don't get down that way much. I'm between St Aug and Jax. I'm not really sure about the whole thing. I've got some reading and research yet to do on them...and I'm sure I'll catch up with one soon enough. Figured I'd keep my eye open at sun n fun even still...bound to be one there someplace.
Click to expand...
I can always meet you in St Augustine on a nice day. I’m always looking for a good excuse to fly. :)
You can text me or call: 407-687-3126
 
Freemasm said:
Go see Danny's airplane. It's not far. A straight shot down 95.

If that doesn't sink the hook into you, you're not ready.
Click to expand...

that's just it... I know I'm not quite ready.
I'm ready to get serious about homing in on something but I don't yet have a firm handle on my wants and mission.
 
Go see Danny's airplane, get a ride if possible. If you take a ride and aren't instantly hooked, seek professional help immediately.
 
I built & flew #3 F1 rocket. 7 years to build & flew it for 7. Sold it because wife didn’t like tandem seating & we needed a Bonanza for family. Nice performance. The only way to do better is a composite aircraft. Finishing Glasair 3 RG. Side by side & really fast with one of Jeff Lavelle’s old engines plus prop from Reno. Recommend metal for first build, here’s why in picture. You may refer to me as Dusty Rhodes.

Watch aft CG if you load up baggage and have a passenger. Ask me how I know. Vince is the best BTW. Man of his word!
cheers HR
 

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