Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
LED Lights
- Thread starter gregbazar
- Start date
hevansrv7a
Well Known Member
LED Position Lights
Check out Killacycle (Bill V.) http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm . I have installed, but not used yet. I am quite happy with them. I used his combo kit. and put all three lights under the lens. Position, Landing/Taxi, strobe.
Check out Killacycle (Bill V.) http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm . I have installed, but not used yet. I am quite happy with them. I used his combo kit. and put all three lights under the lens. Position, Landing/Taxi, strobe.
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
LED Position lights
I have the LED position lights for my 7. These are the ones referenced above.
The kit was very easy to build. The lights are really bright!!! Now we need some LED strobes.
I think there are some EL lights out there that would work as position lights too.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
I have the LED position lights for my 7. These are the ones referenced above.
The kit was very easy to build. The lights are really bright!!! Now we need some LED strobes.
I think there are some EL lights out there that would work as position lights too.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
They are my own design and I sell them for $300 a pair and they come with the strobes and 12V power supplies for the LEDs. The painting of the edge of the lens is the installers decision. They look nice without the edge painted and emit even more light from the edge of the reflectors shown here for a greater coverage area.
-Jeff
-Jeff
Landing Lights
Greg,
I examined and compared Van's tip lights to Duckworks leading edge units in a thread "Tested: Duckworks vs. Van's". In short, Duckworks wins by a huge margin. Even the people that I've spoken with at Van's will admit this. Also, Van's idea demands ~22 amps. Your electrical system capable of this? As to other tip light offerings I can't say. Be mindful, however, that whatever lamp & lens should have automotive headlamp pedigree to focus the light in a useful pattern.
John Siebold
Greg,
I examined and compared Van's tip lights to Duckworks leading edge units in a thread "Tested: Duckworks vs. Van's". In short, Duckworks wins by a huge margin. Even the people that I've spoken with at Van's will admit this. Also, Van's idea demands ~22 amps. Your electrical system capable of this? As to other tip light offerings I can't say. Be mindful, however, that whatever lamp & lens should have automotive headlamp pedigree to focus the light in a useful pattern.
John Siebold
az_gila
Well Known Member
Light Distribution
Jeff .. I notice the expen$ive Whelen unit uses a couple of pieces of what looks like polished metal to alter the light distribution in the horizontal plane.
Have you done any measurments or calculations to ensure you meet the uniformity and minimum distribution of effective light withn the FAA defined angles?
gil in Tucson....
Jeff .. I notice the expen$ive Whelen unit uses a couple of pieces of what looks like polished metal to alter the light distribution in the horizontal plane.
Have you done any measurments or calculations to ensure you meet the uniformity and minimum distribution of effective light withn the FAA defined angles?
gil in Tucson....
Quarter-sized position lights
I found these on this site specializing in Harley-Davidson powered planes:
http://www.hog-air.com/lights.htm
Steve
I found these on this site specializing in Harley-Davidson powered planes:
http://www.hog-air.com/lights.htm
Steve
Nice Lights RV_7A
Those are a sweet trim design RV_7A. I found the Luxeon site a couple of weeks ago. They have a great flash demo of how they make those lights. Silicon Gel filled! Ha!
I am not up on my FAA specs for wingtip lights, so forgive my ignorance. How do you know if they are legal, other than the total output as a function of lights x watts per light?
Greg
Those are a sweet trim design RV_7A. I found the Luxeon site a couple of weeks ago. They have a great flash demo of how they make those lights. Silicon Gel filled! Ha!
I am not up on my FAA specs for wingtip lights, so forgive my ignorance. How do you know if they are legal, other than the total output as a function of lights x watts per light?
Greg
They are designed with the same components as the Whelen ones. They should exceed the requirements. They provide the same coverage and intensity. When compared to the old "light bulb" style they are far more visible at all angles. 6 Watts of pure Red or Green frequencies are much brighter than the incandescent types. Also keep in mind many others are using LED style Nav lights that aren't FAA approved but meet the requirements. As long as they meet FAA requirements is all that matters.
rzbill
Well Known Member
Steve said:
Hi Steve,
I have recently been studying the minimum specs for lighting in the FARs and also reviewing commercial LED's and strobe power supplies, so I thought I should comment.
No disrespect intended to your research, but via visual inspection, the stuff at hog-air is VERY unlikely to meet the specs. For example, the leds in the advertised wing tip lights are obviously not luxeons, so there are simply not enough of them to provide the minimum illumination. With small LED's you have to use many and point them in multiple directions like the kits from Bill Dube. Luxeon's are a different story as is seen in the posts above.
Secondarily, I think I recognize the strobe pack and it may have an improper flash rate. It should be questioned before purchase. It certainly is an attractive price.
I only bring this up because it is my understanding that even though we are experimental, the lighting is still governed by the same FARs as spam cans.
az_gila
Well Known Member
RV_7A said:
Jeff ... I know they don't have to be approved, but they do have to meet the FAA requirements, as you say.
My earlier point was that just having the same number and type of LEDs may not be sufficient.
It is obvious to me that Whelen did some extra engineering with reflective surfaces built into their light (as shown in your picture) to alter the distribution of light from the LEDs.
My question was "Have you measured or calculated the light distribution to ensure it meets the FAA requirements?". Your lights do not seem to have any reflective surfaces engineered into them.
These requirements are very clearly spelled out in FARs 23.1385 to 23.1395
gil in Tucson
Bill Britton
Well Known Member
LED lenses
RV-7A, I assume that by looking at your username that you are building an RV-7, right. Then these lights are for a -7. Do you make light kits for a -10??? If so, I'd be very interested in a set. Where are you located??? I'd like to see some on a flying plane at night. You couldn't find a fellow rv'er to retrofit a pair on a flying RV and get some night pics and actual flight pics could you???
I know it sounds like a lot of work but these lights look very promising and I'd bet that if you could ease everyone's concerns about fulfilling FAA specs, you'd sell quite a few kits. Especially if you'd offer them for both the -7 and -10 kits.
Another question, what did you use for the tail strobe???
Anyhow, excellent looking lights!!!!
Bill Britton
RV-10 Elevators in progress
RV-7A, I assume that by looking at your username that you are building an RV-7, right. Then these lights are for a -7. Do you make light kits for a -10??? If so, I'd be very interested in a set. Where are you located??? I'd like to see some on a flying plane at night. You couldn't find a fellow rv'er to retrofit a pair on a flying RV and get some night pics and actual flight pics could you???
I know it sounds like a lot of work but these lights look very promising and I'd bet that if you could ease everyone's concerns about fulfilling FAA specs, you'd sell quite a few kits. Especially if you'd offer them for both the -7 and -10 kits.
Another question, what did you use for the tail strobe???
Anyhow, excellent looking lights!!!!
Bill Britton
RV-10 Elevators in progress
Bill-
Yes Im building a 7A and I could make them for the -10. Im working on getting them in a flying airplane for testing. I've sold a few sets but no one is flying yet. If someone has a -7 -8 -9 or -10 flying they would like to retro fit them in, I would be willing to send them a set. I would prefer someone here in Texas so I could work with them on installation and photos. I havn't recorded exact numbers of coverage but from what I can see they cover the requirements without issue. When you know they do by far its kind of a moot point to even get exact numbers. Does anyone have exact coverage and output numbers from other LED nav lights offered?
Yes Im building a 7A and I could make them for the -10. Im working on getting them in a flying airplane for testing. I've sold a few sets but no one is flying yet. If someone has a -7 -8 -9 or -10 flying they would like to retro fit them in, I would be willing to send them a set. I would prefer someone here in Texas so I could work with them on installation and photos. I havn't recorded exact numbers of coverage but from what I can see they cover the requirements without issue. When you know they do by far its kind of a moot point to even get exact numbers. Does anyone have exact coverage and output numbers from other LED nav lights offered?
az_gila
Well Known Member
Jeff... the coverage requirements are not just light output minimums....
This from FAR 23.1395 actually quotes a MAXIMUM light output...
No position light intensity may exceed the applicable values in the following equal or exceed the applicable values in 23-1389.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum intensity
-----------------------
Overlaps ---------------------------------- Area A Area B
------------------------------------------ (candles) (candles)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Green in dihedral angle L....................... 10 ----- 1
Red in dihedral angle R......................... 10 ----- 1
Green in dihedral angle A....................... 5 ----- 1
Red in dihedral angle A......................... 5 ----- 1
Rear white in dihedral angle L.................. 5 ----- 1
Rear white in dihedral angle R.................. 5 ----- 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where --
(a) Area A includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 10 degrees but less than 20 degrees; and
(b) Area B includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 20 degrees.
[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 23-43, 58 FR 18977, Apr. 9, 1993]
You have to read all of the FARs I referenced earlier, but this one says that there is a MAXIMUM output allowed for light that is outside the 0 to 110 degrees for the L & R lights and outside the +&- 70 degrees coverage of the tail light. (all angles in the horizontal plane, i.e. looking down)
In this case, more is not better....
I think this is the purpose of the the metal reflectors that also act as baffles for the inner 4 LEDs of the Whelen unit.
There is a good reason for this particular FAR. The horizontal angular coverage angles are designed to show one color only so that the general airplane direction can be determined. If the position lights emit too much light outside their respective angles, an observer will not be able to determine color, and hence direction, of the aircraft.
I think a careful calculation, or accurate measurement, is really needed before you sell these. A view of the Whelen unit you copied shows design features added to meet these very specific FARs....
gil in Tucson
PS sorry about the table formatting, but just check the FAA original FARs...
This from FAR 23.1395 actually quotes a MAXIMUM light output...
No position light intensity may exceed the applicable values in the following equal or exceed the applicable values in 23-1389.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum intensity
-----------------------
Overlaps ---------------------------------- Area A Area B
------------------------------------------ (candles) (candles)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Green in dihedral angle L....................... 10 ----- 1
Red in dihedral angle R......................... 10 ----- 1
Green in dihedral angle A....................... 5 ----- 1
Red in dihedral angle A......................... 5 ----- 1
Rear white in dihedral angle L.................. 5 ----- 1
Rear white in dihedral angle R.................. 5 ----- 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where --
(a) Area A includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 10 degrees but less than 20 degrees; and
(b) Area B includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 20 degrees.
[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 23-43, 58 FR 18977, Apr. 9, 1993]
You have to read all of the FARs I referenced earlier, but this one says that there is a MAXIMUM output allowed for light that is outside the 0 to 110 degrees for the L & R lights and outside the +&- 70 degrees coverage of the tail light. (all angles in the horizontal plane, i.e. looking down)
In this case, more is not better....
I think this is the purpose of the the metal reflectors that also act as baffles for the inner 4 LEDs of the Whelen unit.
There is a good reason for this particular FAR. The horizontal angular coverage angles are designed to show one color only so that the general airplane direction can be determined. If the position lights emit too much light outside their respective angles, an observer will not be able to determine color, and hence direction, of the aircraft.
I think a careful calculation, or accurate measurement, is really needed before you sell these. A view of the Whelen unit you copied shows design features added to meet these very specific FARs....
gil in Tucson
PS sorry about the table formatting, but just check the FAA original FARs...
Gil-
Thanks for the info. Prior to assembling my first set up I read all the requirements on required patterns and intensity both high and low. Here is another pic of Whelens first LED Nav lights. I desgined them to provide the exact coverage using the same LEDs. The sad thing is that Whelen is not currently offering these in 12v. Not that anyone would cash out $610 for the pair.
As you can see no baffles, deflectors, or reflectors. They are mounted in the exact same angle as mine in the same shaped lens. Mine are just configured specifically for RV's.
Then yet another type was designed, it appears an attempt to accomodate RV's but it too is not for use in 12v systems. It appears to use only 5 LEDs.
Many people have emailed me about an LED tail light as well. Well it wont be long until someone offers it with the strobe but here is one without. Again designed for use in a 28v system.
Sad thing is the cost of them really dont make them affordable for Experimental builders.
(cont.)
Thanks for the info. Prior to assembling my first set up I read all the requirements on required patterns and intensity both high and low. Here is another pic of Whelens first LED Nav lights. I desgined them to provide the exact coverage using the same LEDs. The sad thing is that Whelen is not currently offering these in 12v. Not that anyone would cash out $610 for the pair.
As you can see no baffles, deflectors, or reflectors. They are mounted in the exact same angle as mine in the same shaped lens. Mine are just configured specifically for RV's.
Then yet another type was designed, it appears an attempt to accomodate RV's but it too is not for use in 12v systems. It appears to use only 5 LEDs.
Many people have emailed me about an LED tail light as well. Well it wont be long until someone offers it with the strobe but here is one without. Again designed for use in a 28v system.
Sad thing is the cost of them really dont make them affordable for Experimental builders.
(cont.)
(cont.)
Then this company came along and offers these. Spruce carries them as well. They are a nice affordable way to go to an LED setup if you have the old wing tips. Spruce sells them for $325 and that includes the strobe power supply. On another site they note that they are only for use in Utralights and Experimentals? What can this mean? They too must not be FAA certified.
-Jeff
Then this company came along and offers these. Spruce carries them as well. They are a nice affordable way to go to an LED setup if you have the old wing tips. Spruce sells them for $325 and that includes the strobe power supply. On another site they note that they are only for use in Utralights and Experimentals? What can this mean? They too must not be FAA certified.
-Jeff
DGlaeser
Well Known Member
LED tail light
Eric Jones (perhielion.com) has an LED which replaces the regular bulb in a Whelen tail light. I don't know if it will fit in a unit with strobe (you can ask Eric).
He also has wing tip lights, and I think he has a info on his site that explains the coverage requirements.
CreativeAir has a number of nav light products as well (red/green only), but they're not as 'finished' looking as the ones shown so far (not as expensive either).
Dennis Glaeser
Eric Jones (perhielion.com) has an LED which replaces the regular bulb in a Whelen tail light. I don't know if it will fit in a unit with strobe (you can ask Eric).
He also has wing tip lights, and I think he has a info on his site that explains the coverage requirements.
CreativeAir has a number of nav light products as well (red/green only), but they're not as 'finished' looking as the ones shown so far (not as expensive either).
Dennis Glaeser
az_gila
Well Known Member
Whelen lights
Jeff... thanks for the Whelen info.
The variations of their designs is interesting....
Their later models seem to apply baffles to somewhat lower the light output that is not in the horizontal plane.
One design item that seems necessary is the "sweep back" of the mounting plane. Since the L/R coverage needs to be 110 degrees, it would appear that the LED mounting plane is positioned so that is is not a 90 degrees to the aircraft fuselage axis.... I presume yours is swept back....
gil in Tucson ... would love to see the Whelen design documentation...
Jeff... thanks for the Whelen info.
The variations of their designs is interesting....
Their later models seem to apply baffles to somewhat lower the light output that is not in the horizontal plane.
One design item that seems necessary is the "sweep back" of the mounting plane. Since the L/R coverage needs to be 110 degrees, it would appear that the LED mounting plane is positioned so that is is not a 90 degrees to the aircraft fuselage axis.... I presume yours is swept back....
gil in Tucson ... would love to see the Whelen design documentation...
N941WR
Legacy Member
I bought and have almost finished installing Skybright nightlights.
The set I have does not include the aft facing white light or the plastic cover. Here's a picture.
In fact, I had to cut them down a little so they would fit under the Van's lens.
To meet the reg's they used a reflector to disperse the light.
The set I have does not include the aft facing white light or the plastic cover. Here's a picture.
In fact, I had to cut them down a little so they would fit under the Van's lens.
To meet the reg's they used a reflector to disperse the light.
