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Budget Costs Beyond Airframe and Engine

rockitdoc

Well Known Member
Sponsor
OK, the budget for an airframe and a new engine on a -14 is about $71 AMUs. But I'm having trouble figuring the cost for the rest. I'm doing a basic VFR panel but with two radios (steam gauges preferred), no auto pilot, comfy interior but not plush, and I can paint her (many show cars and motorcycles on my resume, this is the really easy part for me).

Can you guys help me with a reasonable ballpark? I saw somewhere in this forum that a -14 was going to be $140 AMUs, so that's with a full blast panel, I guess? But, $70 AMUs beyond airframe and engine? Seems high, but then, this is an airplane, right?

Thanks, in advance.

S
 
If you've already got the steam gauges, go with them, but if you have to buy them, have a look at various EFISs. The price/performance of EFISs passed (were cheaper than) that of the standard 6 pack and engine gauges about a decade ago.
 
If you've already got the steam gauges, go with them, but if you have to buy them, have a look at various EFISs. The price/performance of EFISs passed (were cheaper than) that of the standard 6 pack and engine gauges about a decade ago.

Thanks Terry.

I guess I was thinking steam gauges only because that's what I'm familiar with and they seem simpler (but maybe not?) But, this old dog can learn new tricks (sometimes) and if the EFIS systems are the trick, that's what I'll do. Also, EFIS might be lighter? And....easier to wire up?
 
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Do you have the prop and FWF kit in your $71K? That's $15k or more. After that, you still need an electrical system (add up all the bits and it gets expensive), an interior, paint, and avionics. I would submit that many builders are spending $30K or more on their panels. You don't have to, but many do.
 
Just a comment on steam gauges. I'm sure I'll get some flack on this one, but...

I wouldn't put them in a new plane unless its the only way you can afford a panel. Given that you are looking at an RV-14 versus an RV7 or RV9 I'll assume that isn't the case. This area is changing very quickly. As time goes on there is less and less experimental panels with any steam gauges. Even instruments that were originally only for Experimentals are migrating into the GA market. Steam gauges were first used for backups and still are in some cases but now with the lower cost of small EFIS units even these applications are becoming less common, certainly on new builds. If you look forward to your resale you will do much better just having glass.

As an aside, I've been looking at buying an older LSA to have something to fly while I finish my build. Whenever I look at a plane with only steam gauges it is immediately worth less. That's just me though. I know that many continue to fly with steam gauges.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
 
Panel cost

A simple day VFR panel can be done for $5-$10 AMU's.

For example, using the following as a base:

GRT Sport EX 7" EFIS $1,500.00
GRT engine monitor package $1,210.00 (less with discount)
Garmin VHF GTR200 $1,250.00
Garmin Aera 660 GPS $850.00
Compass $200.00
TOTAL $5,010.00
Add switches and wiring to this.

There is no need for 2 COM radios for VFR. The above Garmin GTR200 includes two channels as well as an intercom. Other brands are similar.

If you wanted to you could add some supplementary steam gauges e.g. airspeed and altimeter for $750 total, from Vans.

An alternative to the GRT Sport EFIS is the Garmin G5, the cost is about the same.

There is no provision for ADS-B or transponder in the above, this would add about $3,500.
 
If you've already got the steam gauges, go with them, but if you have to buy them, have a look at various EFISs. The price/performance of EFISs passed (were cheaper than) that of the standard 6 pack and engine gauges about a decade ago.

The steam gauges will involve a vacuum system which I would not install in a new -14.
 
I had the FWF kit in the $71k (airframe=36k + engine=35k). So, a prop, panel, wire harness, interior and paint are whats left. Any estimates for wiring harness?

A basic EFIS as described with steam altim and airspeed as backups is prolly what ill do. Thanks for all the arguments. Makes sense.
 
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Fully built and dressed:

1/3 - airframe
1/3 - engine
1/3 - panel & wiring
1/3- paint, and everything else.

And this is being kinda thrifty in purchases, but a full featured bird.

Estimated with shop built panel and shop painted with excellent quality. These two areas open for compromise if you are good and fast with the avionics, and have facilities for painting. Skills and personal energy makes up for a lot as these two are a lot of work. ( You might make progress faster doing consulting work for $$$ and paying for these two.)
 
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Your kit price of $36k does not include the FFW which is about $7.5k if I remember correctly.

Don't forget state taxes. Almost $7k on my airplane in Illinois.
 
The couple hundred dollar and small purchases here and there really add up. Fiberglass supplies? There is a few hundred. SikaFlex if you going that route, couple hundred bucks. Tools, there is a few grand. I have had right around 70 orders for various things right now. Then again I am building a -7A and I don't know how much more complete the -14 is.
 
And I distinctly recall (2006) walking out of the auto paint store with an $1800 box of paint, and that was just the base/clear/reducer, with a trade discount.... If someone else is painting it, $8-10k minimum.

Yeah, stuff adds up quickly. Lights, wire, switches, connectors, interior, belts, fiberglass supplies, and the big one....shipping! (or in some cases, the divorce...:eek:)

As was mentioned earlier, I think a GRT Sport EFIS is a bargain for covering the flight instruments (and an inexpensive moving map)
 
Finishing cost

Just to list a few...
Finishing kit
Prop
Govenor?
Engine Accessories (Alternator, starter, battery, etc.)
FWF
Fuel pump and selector
ELT
O?
Interior
 
The biggest variable in remaining cost is the panel and paint; to get a solid budget you really need to get a ballpark of what you'll spend there. I built a solid VFR panel for about $5k in 2009 on the other end of the spectrum someone recently shared what they paid for a professionally built, maxed out IFR -10 panel and it literally cost more than my entire -7 build. I also chose to polish the majority of my plane and painted the fiberglass myself, total cost less than $1k and I've heard of professional paint jobs over $20k.

my opinion, get a solid estimate on those two numbers add that to all of the vans orders (kits incl fwf, prop, engine) then add 15% for all the incidental stuff you'll need maybe 20% if you want your interior to feel like a luxury car.
 
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I had the FWF kit in the $71k (airframe=36k + engine=35k). So, a prop, panel, wire harness, interior and paint are whats left. Any estimates for wiring harness?

A basic EFIS as described with steam altim and airspeed as backups is prolly what ill do. Thanks for all the arguments. Makes sense.

I just went through the exercise for my RV8 build but here are my estimates for your bare minimum of a RV14 equiped for basic VFR cross-country mission. There is no GTN navigator or other expensive stuff. I think many 14 will end up costing more than this.

RV14: Airframe and engine: 75K (realistically number)
Propeller: 20K (cs composite) / 8K-10K (FP)
firewall forward: 8K
VFR X/C Avionic: 20K (dual EFIS w/no frill -- from Dynon estimate)
Electrical wiring/switches/wiring/etc: 2K (only basic)
Extra parts not in the kit: 2K (control yokes, light, etc)
Paint: 2K (cheap DIY) versus (PRO: $$$)


I like the fact you are asking this because you won't find this information anywhere in the website. I think many projects get stalled during the basic build after the builder realistically looked at the remaining cost to fly the airplane.
 
Overall, shipping seems to be around 4% or 5%, to Boulder CO. Some of the bigger things were delivered directly to my hangar at Longmont.

One oft-ignored cost is for things that I call infrastructure. These are things like tape, alcohol or lacquer thinner, work tables, lights, moving blankets, etc. I've got just over $3k in that category alone. Granted, a more modern kit like a -14 will cost less here than my old-school -3B, but still, these things add up. You'll be surprised.

Tools can run as much money as you can imagine, maybe more. Send me a PM or email (click on my user name for these options) and come down and I'll show you that sort of thing.

I agree with the folks advocating for the EFIS systems. They are a good way to accommodate a digital engine instrument display (easier to read and more information than analog) and the transponder/ADS-B that you'll probably want at your location. With the EFIS systems, you'll need their sensor packages and maybe an option or two like a fuel-flow sensor.

Also, plus one for Wirejock's inclusion of oxygen. Out here, even VFR, it greatly enhances the utility of the plane.

Small things like harnesses will cost a bit, too.

Dave
 
Shipping is no joke, between the kits, prop, and all the other stuff I have ordered shipping to Wyoming has totaled to around 2,500 right now. That's even after getting free shipping on the engine.
 
Your kit price of $36k does not include the FFW which is about $7.5k if I remember correctly.

Don't forget state taxes. Almost $7k on my airplane in Illinois.

Vans has a 'finishing kit' at $13.4 AMUs. I thought this was FWF. No?
 
Vans has a 'finishing kit' at $13.4 AMUs. I thought this was FWF. No?

I am afraid my RV8 FWF kit is not the same as the finishing it. I was thinking the same thing too :mad:. The finishing kit contains the cowls, plexiglass, tires, brakes, engine mount, and fiberglass fairings. The FWF is dependent on the engine and prop you selected. Some people choose to build up their FWF piece by piece. The Vans FWF kit contains the Vetterman mufflers for the Lycoming OEM engine, all the hoses, alternator, solenoids, engine mounts rubber bushings (not mount), oil filter, baffle kit, throttle linkages, firewall fittings, clamps, and a myriad of small items you will need. If you choose to customize your engine and prop in anyway, some of the items in the FWF kit may not fit, as least based on the comments in the forum. I knew very little about engine, fwf, and airplane building when I started this build about 2 years ago and since I choose all the Vans OEM engine/prop option, getting the FWF kit makes sense.

At least you get the true cost of your future build now instead of later like many builders face at the later stage of their builds.
 
Aircraft Spruce

There is a lot a of bantering about the panel etc... It is all true, we went with Advanced Flight Systems - so far it is incredible. One thing left out is replacement parts and weekly, yes, I said weekly package from Aircraft Spruce. It is usually something small, but I have a rule that is it was put together or screwed in and it needed to come apart it was re bought. Like the bolts that control the flaps, or more cotter pins for the nose wheel, or washers to back the #40 rivets, then I bought a large selection of rivets and pop rivets, cherry rivets, flush rivets, brake fluid, servos, boing lube, oops rivets, a ton of special tools, etc... etc... etc... etc you get the idea. After a while it was easier to get a 3.5 rivet from the pack instead of searching which vans bag had the right size. Be organized!! Sorry for the rambling, but you will see it cost much more then you think, but over a long amount of time it is not so painful. If you love (or grow to love) the building process it works.
Larry
 
Another small, optional, but recurring cost is insurance. It's up to you if you want or need to insure the value of the parts when it's in your home, or on the road to the airport, or inside a hangar. Of course once flying insurance is a lot more.
 
I know if I were building another aircraft it would probably be a 14 , but Economy and the latest CAD design do not go hand in hand, Van?s has done a ton of R&D to deliver total performance in their latest aircraft , my question to the OP is why spend 4 years and 120-140 K on a 14 when you can find a bare bones 7 already flying or mostly Assembled for about 50-60% of your budget, and still see the ground go by you @ 175 kts ?
 
I know if I were building another aircraft it would probably be a 14 , but Economy and the latest CAD design do not go hand in hand, Van?s has done a ton of R&D to deliver total performance in their latest aircraft , my question to the OP is why spend 4 years and 120-140 K on a 14 when you can find a bare bones 7 already flying or mostly Assembled for about 50-60% of your budget, and still see the ground go by you @ 175 kts ?

Cost doesn't matter (so much) to me compared with the piece of mind knowing the ship was assembled correctly and the way I want it. At any rate, I like to build stuff, so the $ economy is secondary. And, besides, the -14A is roomier with a stouter nose gear. What better reason to buy more tools, right?
 
Although the total cost of building a -14 is probably going to be $140AMUs, that number won't be needed on Day1. It spreads out something like:

Day 1- Buy Empennage Kit-
$4525
Shipping - $500

Days 1- 60 Build Empennage
$3000 Special Tools, etc.

Day 60 - Buy Fuselage Kit
$10,200
Shipping - $500

Days 61- 150 Build Fuselage
$1500 Special Tools, stuff

Day 151 - Buy Wing Kit
$8210
Shipping - $500

Days 151 - 240 Build Wings
$1500 Stuff

Day 241 - Buy Engine
$35,000
Buy Finishing Kit
$9470

Install Engine
$3000 Stuff
Buy FWF Kit
$8000

Buy Prop
$12,000

Buy Panel Instruments - $10,000

Buy wire harness - $5000?

Interior - $5000?

Paint - $5000 (I paint, so this is just materials)

Total above = $123 AMUs
Contingencies = $12 AMUs
Total = $135AMUs

So big ticket items are scattered out over about two years with largest one-time hit occurring with engine purchase and FWF and finishing kits at about $55AMUs.

I know my times are probably not very accurate, but assuming this is a full time job (that is 20-30 hrs per week for me, I'm retired) and assuming the 1500 hrs estimate by Vans to build a -14 is optimistic, I figure it should take 2500 hrs for an amateur learning as he goes, so about 100 weeks, or two years. My shop is already built, I have many tools from building race cars and motorcycles (not airplanes, though), is almost large enough (1000 sf) with good ventilation and light. So, I should be able to build the whole enchilada in the garage, debug it, then disassemble the wings and take it to the hangar, reassemble and go flying. Wishful?
The hardest part will be to figure out what color to paint her.
 
Although the total cost of building a -14 is probably going to be $140AMUs, that number won't be needed on Day1. It spreads out something like:

Day 1- Buy Empennage Kit-
$4525
Shipping - $500

Days 1- 60 Build Empennage
$3000 Special Tools, etc.

Day 60 - Buy Fuselage Kit
$10,200
Shipping - $500

Days 61- 150 Build Fuselage
$1500 Special Tools, stuff

Day 151 - Buy Wing Kit
$8210
Shipping - $500

Days 151 - 240 Build Wings
$1500 Stuff

Day 241 - Buy Engine
$35,000
Buy Finishing Kit
$9470

Install Engine
$3000 Stuff
Buy FWF Kit
$8000

Buy Prop
$12,000

Buy Panel Instruments - $10,000

Buy wire harness - $5000?

Interior - $5000?

Paint - $5000 (I paint, so this is just materials)

Total above = $123 AMUs
Contingencies = $12 AMUs
Total = $135AMUs

So big ticket items are scattered out over about two years with largest one-time hit occurring with engine purchase and FWF and finishing kits at about $55AMUs.

I know my times are probably not very accurate, but assuming this is a full time job (that is 20-30 hrs per week for me, I'm retired) and assuming the 1500 hrs estimate by Vans to build a -14 is optimistic, I figure it should take 2500 hrs for an amateur learning as he goes, so about 100 weeks, or two years. My shop is already built, I have many tools from building race cars and motorcycles (not airplanes, though), is almost large enough (1000 sf) with good ventilation and light. So, I should be able to build the whole enchilada in the garage, debug it, then disassemble the wings and take it to the hangar, reassemble and go flying. Wishful?
The hardest part will be to figure out what color to paint her.
 
I think your overall estimate of $135k is very reasonable (if not conservative). I just ordered my engine, prop, FWF, and avionics this week :eek::D:eek:which account for a little less than 30% of my total build cost. My build has been spread out over 6 years to facilitate the pay as you go method.





Although the total cost of building a -14 is probably going to be $140AMUs, that number won't be needed on Day1. It spreads out something like:

Day 1- Buy Empennage Kit-
$4525
Shipping - $500

Days 1- 60 Build Empennage
$3000 Special Tools, etc.

Day 60 - Buy Fuselage Kit
$10,200
Shipping - $500

Days 61- 150 Build Fuselage
$1500 Special Tools, stuff

Day 151 - Buy Wing Kit
$8210
Shipping - $500

Days 151 - 240 Build Wings
$1500 Stuff

Day 241 - Buy Engine
$35,000
Buy Finishing Kit
$9470

Install Engine
$3000 Stuff
Buy FWF Kit
$8000

Buy Prop
$12,000

Buy Panel Instruments - $10,000

Buy wire harness - $5000?

Interior - $5000?

Paint - $5000 (I paint, so this is just materials)

Total above = $123 AMUs
Contingencies = $12 AMUs
Total = $135AMUs

So big ticket items are scattered out over about two years with largest one-time hit occurring with engine purchase and FWF and finishing kits at about $55AMUs.

I know my times are probably not very accurate, but assuming this is a full time job (that is 20-30 hrs per week for me, I'm retired) and assuming the 1500 hrs estimate by Vans to build a -14 is optimistic, I figure it should take 2500 hrs for an amateur learning as he goes, so about 100 weeks, or two years. My shop is already built, I have many tools from building race cars and motorcycles (not airplanes, though), is almost large enough (1000 sf) with good ventilation and light. So, I should be able to build the whole enchilada in the garage, debug it, then disassemble the wings and take it to the hangar, reassemble and go flying. Wishful?
The hardest part will be to figure out what color to paint her.
 
I have many tools from building race cars and motorcycles (not airplanes, though)

Dude, if you are already building race car, building airplane is easy. There are so many little things in the race cars that must be set right compare to airplane.
 
You'll need more and different tools for the FWF than the airframe.

You can probably do the wiring for less, unless you're lumping in all the electrical toys. Likewise the instrument cost might be low unless you're planning on analog gauges.

Oxygen should be added, you'll want it here. Lights, maybe. All the engine accessories aren't included and need to be.

Dave
 
Although the total cost of building a -14 is probably going to be $140AMUs, that number won't be needed on Day1. It spreads out something like:

Day 1- Buy Empennage Kit-
$4525
Shipping - $500

Days 1- 60 Build Empennage
$3000 Special Tools, etc.

Day 60 - Buy Fuselage Kit
$10,200
Shipping - $500

Days 61- 150 Build Fuselage
$1500 Special Tools, stuff

Day 151 - Buy Wing Kit
$8210
Shipping - $500

Days 151 - 240 Build Wings
$1500 Stuff

Day 241 - Buy Engine
$35,000
Buy Finishing Kit
$9470

Install Engine
$3000 Stuff
Buy FWF Kit
$8000

Buy Prop
$12,000

Buy Panel Instruments - $10,000

Buy wire harness - $5000?

Interior - $5000?

Paint - $5000 (I paint, so this is just materials)

Total above = $123 AMUs
Contingencies = $12 AMUs
Total = $135AMUs

So big ticket items are scattered out over about two years with largest one-time hit occurring with engine purchase and FWF and finishing kits at about $55AMUs.

I know my times are probably not very accurate, but assuming this is a full time job (that is 20-30 hrs per week for me, I'm retired) and assuming the 1500 hrs estimate by Vans to build a -14 is optimistic, I figure it should take 2500 hrs for an amateur learning as he goes, so about 100 weeks, or two years. My shop is already built, I have many tools from building race cars and motorcycles (not airplanes, though), is almost large enough (1000 sf) with good ventilation and light. So, I should be able to build the whole enchilada in the garage, debug it, then disassemble the wings and take it to the hangar, reassemble and go flying. Wishful?
The hardest part will be to figure out what color to paint her.

I don't think it's an unreasonable plan/expectation. My experience with the wings as provided in the -14A was that I didn't lose any time by waiting to attach them in the hangar. I had one very minor wiring issue that was resolved quickly. There's not much you'll do at home that you can't / won't do in hangar - you'll have to make all the same connections there. The only difference would be testing avionics with the full avionics system connected/powered up (G3X doesn't like it when the CANBUS is open/not terminated), but that's relatively minor and you'd still want to calibrate the system in hangar. No harm of course in attaching wings in shop but you won't lose much by waiting.
 
You'll need more and different tools for the FWF than the airframe.

You can probably do the wiring for less, unless you're lumping in all the electrical toys. Likewise the instrument cost might be low unless you're planning on analog gauges.

Oxygen should be added, you'll want it here. Lights, maybe. All the engine accessories aren't included and need to be.

Dave

I had oxy in by V35. I think the bottle and masks was about $1200, so it's in the static, but still over 1 AMU.
 
You'll need more and different tools for the FWF than the airframe.

You can probably do the wiring for less, unless you're lumping in all the electrical toys. Likewise the instrument cost might be low unless you're planning on analog gauges.

Oxygen should be added, you'll want it here. Lights, maybe. All the engine accessories aren't included and need to be.

Dave

No steam gauges, but it appears EFIS + ADS-B + engine monitor + GTR200 + 660 GPS and compass adds up to about $9000, so I figured $10AMUs. It might take 12 AMUs, but there's no autopilot, so 12 ought to do it.
 
Dude, if you are already building race car, building airplane is easy. There are so many little things in the race cars that must be set right compare to airplane.

Yes, except all I have to do in the race car is related to two dimensional issues. That third dimension could be problematic if one of the cotter pins comes loose! :D
 
Your plan mirrors my actual dollars for my 14A so it is very realistic. I was a bit slower on build time.
 
Budget Planning-

Initial
Add material costs of kit + engine + cost of currently planned finishings (basic VFR, interior, other) = Dream Total
Now take Dream Total + 30% = Probable Total
Now take Probable Total + paint = Realistic Total
Now take Realistic Total & NEVER utter this # to your wife!

In actuality, you will find the first time you walk down the line at OSH (whenever that happens again) your original plan for basic vfr goes out the window.
 
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